NurembergVillan Posted February 10, 2014 Moderator Share Posted February 10, 2014 Ah shit I wonder what's going through David Moyes' head these days. The strange thing is that he was good at not losing with Everton, sure he got a lot of draws but last season he only lost seven games and this year they have one more than that already. People talk about a lot of shitty defenders and so on, but it's not like these guys are 15 year old rookies, most of them are seasoned Internationals with a lot of experience at the top level. When you write someone off after one season, it can come back and haunt you, but I am really struggling to see how Moyes and his ability as a tactician holds up against the really big managers. One thing is to not play well, score goals and win on a regular basis - which they are not doing - but how are the players responding to this? Wenger just lost 5-1 at Liverpool and rumors say he gave the players a lesson they will not forget in the coming days. I just imagine Moyes doing the same after last night, do you really think players like Rooney, Van Persie, Vidic and Evra take that seriously? I have my doubts, I remember playing in the divisions in my country and when the manager does a lousy job you kind of lose that natural respect for him. I don't think those players mentioned have a problem with professionalism, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were starting to hope for another man coming in instead of Moyes. Ferguson gave United stability and continuity, something unheard of at the top level in football these days. He is a legend and the most successful man on the island, but it would be so naive to think that he can point out his successor and then hope for just the same. People also talk about Ferguson's early days and that people should have faith in Moyes for several seasons, but is that really the right thing to do in 2014? In the 90's you could do badly for a season and then bounce back, but in this day of age you can lose everything in a season. The market moves so quickly, the financial situation is changed entirely and players are basically mercenaries for the highest bidder. The Champions League is the holy grail on top of that as well. At Everton I respected Moyes all the way, he did remarkable things for them and even reached 4th one season. People laugh at him right now, and above all Liverpool-fans, but reaching 4th is something he did and Brendan Rodgers got 7th or something last season. Even though they are nine points ahead of Man Utd right now, Liverpool aren't guaranteed anything this season still. Tottenham are three points behind them and are going under the radar, they have lots to play for, it's not just Man Utd trying to get that 4th place back. For Moyes though, I can never really see him being the tactician needed for such a big club. He is painfully single-minded and the style they are going for now is just so far away from utilizing their talents in the proper way. It will last on good will and respect for Fergie's decision, but it will never last in the long-term. The game has changed at the top, the other clubs have such good squads and the gap will become huge in a matter of a transfer window. In the 90's United could buy two players and rectify a problem to catch Arsenal, but now you see Chelsea/Man City buying players for 60M to just give competition to already settled players good enough for most teams in the Champions League. Apart from Moyes' obvious sweet contract giving him five years of settlement if fired, I am glad I am not him right now 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 https://twitter.com/RunMoyesRun Heh 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 What I am simply saying, maybe he could have done a better job then he did? Just as someone could do a better job with Man U? Of course someone could have done better, or he'd be the best manager in the world, which is clearly ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 People talk about a lot of shitty defenders and so on, but it's not like these guys are 15 year old rookies, most of them are seasoned Internationals with a lot of experience at the top level. Smalling, Jones and Evans were guys playing with salted and peppered internationals. Smalling and Jones have negligible worthwhile experience for England. I don't think Northern Ireland for Evans counts for much in international experience. This seasoned Vidic and Ferdinand are clearly past it. Evra is still decent, probably the best performing defender. Rafael is still a strolling red card who needs to be replaced. (BTW if you want people to read your long posts split the paragraphs up into one or two sentences. Nobody wants to read an essay of text on a computer screen). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) Here is a brain twister; Moyes has never won anything with Everton for however many millions of years he has been there (apart from 4th spot one year). Martinez walks in - BANG - they are fighting for CL straightaway. Ferguson has a title winning team, Moyes comes in and BANG. They are poo. The question is this; maybe Moyes was simply holding Everton from reaching their full potential just as he does at Manure now? I think Everton will finish 7th this year, pretty much what they did with Moyes for years. I think they've hit the glass ceiling, like we did with MON. To break it you need a multi billionaire! Edited February 10, 2014 by Xela 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electric Avenue Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Looking at that Moyes celebration I'm no psychologist but I'd say he's feeling the strain big time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 When I was growing up in the late 90s Everton were annual relegation strugglers, bit like the level we are now. They stayed up on the last day in 97/98 and just again the following season with Kevin Campbell's goals rescuing the day. So Moyes did do a brilliant job there. He constructed a very good squad with not a huge amount spent. If he gets sacked within the next year at Man.United and we pot Lambert, I would have no issue with him being the next Villa manager although suspect he might go abroad as can't see any of the other top clubs wanting him. Sometimes managers and clubs just don't fit together, it happens. Mourinho and Man. United in my mind certainly fits together as would Ancelotti and Man. United, I never understood why they didn't just go for a bit hitter straight after Fergie to help keep them ticking over while they prepare someone like Giggs as their Guardiola. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electric Avenue Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Part of me thinks they thought strategically - get a shit manager after Fergie as nobody could follow Fergie. This way when they get a proper manager after Moyes the new guy will be under a lot less pressure. Moyes is being used as a buffer , a release valve . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dom_Wren Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Part of me thinks they thought strategically - get a shit manager after Fergie as nobody could follow Fergie. This way when they get a proper manager after Moyes the new guy will be under a lot less pressure. Moyes is being used as a buffer , a release valve . Mate, not being funny, but i thought exactly the same thing. It was a no win situation for anybody following Taggert, the only thing is that 6 year contract, lot of compo but nothing to losing on CL year in and out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electric Avenue Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Yes but that 6 year contract will probably have performance related clauses in it. Like fail to reach CL qualification and you are fired with less compo ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) When I was growing up in the late 90s Everton were annual relegation strugglers, bit like the level we are now. They stayed up on the last day in 97/98 and just again the following season with Kevin Campbell's goals rescuing the day. That's all cyclical though, I grew up in the 80s when Everton were brilliant. They won the league twice. Use that as a point of reference and Moyes was treading water. Edited February 10, 2014 by The_Rev 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Yes but he took over after the Walter Smith era when Everton were very much lower midtable/relegation battlers. It's like criticising MON/Gregory for not following Ron Saunders/Barton achievements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 But then maybe Smith just badly under performed? Everton fans expectations have always been top six, and with good reason really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) Part of me thinks they thought strategically - get a shit manager after Fergie as nobody could follow Fergie. This way when they get a proper manager after Moyes the new guy will be under a lot less pressure. Moyes is being used as a buffer , a release valve . I can see the logic, but Moyes was very highly regarded before taking the Man United job. Edited February 10, 2014 by Mantis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papillon Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Part of me thinks they thought strategically - get a shit manager after Fergie as nobody could follow Fergie. This way when they get a proper manager after Moyes the new guy will be under a lot less pressure. Moyes is being used as a buffer , a release valve . I can see the logic, but Moyes was very highly regarded before taking the Man United job. That was my idea when we hired Alex McLeish before anyone really knew we couldn't cope financially anymore, at least that was the only plausible explanation. Brainfuck with every Villa-fan on the planet, then there's always these naive bunch of superfans who gets behind the manager even though it goes against every logic, perform badly (of course) and lower expectations for the future. The next guy, in our case Paul Lambert, has gotten a lot of support even though his results would have gotten the sack at every other club. American management consultancy 101, probably had a team from BCG or McKinsey & Co. structure the whole thing I don't think United hired Moyes as the man between Ferguson and the next guy. However, I think this exact topic was up for discussion, you just don't replace someone like that in one season. The ideal person for such a game would be Jose Mourinho though. Everyone fears he is always going to be at a club for three years tops, which could have been the case at United and that's why he didn't get the job, but you could bet your ass he would have done a better job than Moyes thus far. Ferguson created a romantic legacy, something every club wants like with Wenger at Arsenal for example, but statistics show very few managers sustain the years and it was stupid from them to think the same club could do it twice in a row. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 "last time i headed that many balls in a game i was in the conference" dan burn taking the piss out of them, fulham defender with 4 prem games under his belt questioning utds tactics on SSN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electric Avenue Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I've worked with McKinsey & Co and you ain't a millions miles out. This is all part of a longer plan . Moyes is the night watchman . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papillon Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 But then maybe Smith just badly under performed? Everton fans expectations have always been top six, and with good reason really. Everton for me, during Moyes' tenure consisted of a lot of players I really wanted to have at the Villa. Loyal servants of high quality as well as a lot of grifters every club has easier access to, but they didn't necessarily make them fight for top 6. Tim Cahill was picked up for 1.5M, Tim Howard cost 3M, Phil Neville 3.5M, Steven Pienaar 2M, Phil Jagielka 4M, of course Leighton Baines at 6M, Joleon Lescott 5M, Mikel Arteta 2M and so on. Marouane Fellaini was expensive at 15M, but he was always feared and coveted by most clubs when he was at Everton. Looks totally lost at United, but let's not forget he has played a total of eight games in the league for them. I guess it was Moyes who also brought in Seamus Coleman to Everton. He was basically working on the same type of budget Paul Lambert has now, and we see what kind of players a better manager can get into his team if the kit is spent properly. It also shows how huge of a step it is from managing a mid-table club with little pressure, as opposed to a top club demanding the trophy every season. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovers13 Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Phil Jones will be fine when he gets to play at his normal position. He's a natural cb, and has been a victim of his versatility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 I thought he would be better but I think maybe Moyes has reached the Martin O'Neill glass ceiling where you cant get much higher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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