Manchester United

[Voinjama]

Van Persie is a big one too. He is 30 but still world class and a big asset. I've heard rumours that he is not happy with David Moyes training sessions and tactics. But I would like to clarify I don't know whether that is in fact true or not.

 

Can I just say that as someone who started following football in the mid 90s, I have only ever known Manchester United to be really good, some of you older guys can remember them pre 92 when they were average but I don't. So I am absolutely loving this.

[BOF]

"Absolutely loving this" is not age-dependent I can assure you And it's fairly accepted at this stage that both RVP & Carrick have been affected by Moyes' training sessions and his reluctance to give them special treatment despite their obvious fragility. If he prefers them in the treatment room then more power to him

[Zatman]

dont agree with RVP being affected. He has always been injury prone could say similar to Vlaar(what do they do at Feyenoord ) and had a 2 season blip when he stayed fully fit and showed his quality

[BOF]

Check RVP's seasons under Fergie compared to his seasons at Arsenal. The point was he didn't get injured under Fergie because Fergie modified his training regime to suit. Moyes hasn't. The result is Moyes has the RVP that Arsenal 'enjoyed'. In your haste to disagree, you've slightly scan-read my post

[Con]

not trying to turn this image into a Bannan .gif but Man Utd goals conceded column basically tells the story.

 

I think Fergie wanted to get out at the end of the 10/11 season, the year Man City won the league. Year previous to that they had shipped 37 goals after 3 successive seasons where they conceded more goals than the previous season.

 

The defence was just getting worse but he wanted One More Title.

 

To go out on a high, and eclipse Liverpool's titles, Fergie bought Van Persie for a huge fee at his very peak with no resell value.

 

The defence was still good enough to have another half-decent season squeezed out of them and they would win the league with the extra 20-30 goals. 

 

Van Persie was a short-term purchase purely to help Fergie ride out on a high.  

 

Now Fergie's left and the team has fallen apart, Van Persie feels just as screwed as Moyes who needs to replace him as well as the defence.

 

Man Utd are now paying for the short-termism at the end of the Fergie era.

 

[Stevo985]

No matter how many times you post it, I still won't know what point you're trying to make with it.

[AVFCforever1991]

 

 

I see this graph in my nightmares.

[Papillon]

Ever heard about Murphy's Law? This year United have seen a domino effect of unfortunate events, which IMO was very likely to happen when Ferguson left the building. On top of that, injuries have piled up for many of their best players. Not just in defense like I will argue, but also in midfield and up top. Van Persie has played 1050 minutes, Vidic and Carrick have missed 9 games.  

 

You and your statistics, why do you even follow football when everything is about numbers? It's like you want everything to follow an algorithm and then the best team will always win no matter what. This is not FM or FIFA, a machine does not determine every game, coincidence or outcome. Man Utd did not have the best squad last season, but they won the title by 11 points. This year they have the exact same team except for Januzaj, Fellaini and now Juan Mata. Sure the defenders have become one year older, but that is just part of the problem. It goes without saying that a team that wins the league can challenge the next season if everyone is there. The players have aged a few months from May to August, but you get my point. What has changed United is the transition from a historic manager to a new one as well as injuries. Some years injuries reach impossible numbers and it's quite random who gets them.

 

Rio Ferdinand played 2322 minutes last season and this year he has only played 630. He is old and over the top of course, but still a better defender than most when fit. Nemanja Vidic has been one of the best defenders in Europe for many years, but this season he has only played 1305 minutes due to injuries and suspension. He is "only" 32 years and their natural leader, it goes without saying that him out is a big blow. John Terry (33) played 950 minutes last season and he is Chelsea's Vidic basically, this year he has completed every single minute of every single game they have played in the league. This gives stability and leadership whenever they play, which we all know is the most important thing in putting together a defensive unit. Gary Cahill has virtually played every single game as well, except for when he has been rested for David Luiz. Chelsea have the best defense in terms of letting in goals this season, but it's not like their roster is that much better than United IMO. Jonny Evans is underrated but very solid. He goes under the radar just like Michael Carrick did for many years, but he too has been injured at the same time as Vidic. Against Stoke they had to pull out both Evans and Jones and put Carrick at the back because Vidic was suspended. Evra has been present for most games and he holds a high level still, even though this might be his last season. Rafael, the undisputed first choice at right back has been injured for most of the season and has only completed 899 minutes out of a possible 2160.

 

Now I am not glorifying their team too much, we all know they need major change. But this is not new. Every club has to change a few players now and again, just like Chelsea have to do with Terry and Cole in due time. Behind Terry you have Cahill and Luiz, who is virtually a defensive midfielder due to his erratic style. A long-term injury to Terry or Cahill would have wrecked Chelsea's season before it even started - but they have been lucky. United have not. Had Vidic stayed free of injuries alongside Evans it would have looked much better, you cannot prove their defensive faults when their best players aren't even playing. Injuries are part of the game and you can of course argue the fact that United have many players with a history with injuries. You can and must sustain one long-term injury to one of your players in a worst-case scenario, the best teams plan for that kind of thing, but when Rafael and Vidic are out all the time they have to change around and they never get the stability. You argue that they have to buy a whole new squad, but that isn't necessarily the biggest problem in the world. They have the money and they can guarantee a place in the XI for many players wanting to play for them. The best players don't always have to spend six months getting used to a new league, at least not in defense. With Rafael, Jones, Evans and Smalling they have young players with a lot of versatility, in other words great backup players for even better players. People forget that Jones is even younger than Nathan Baker, he has 9 games for England at 21 years of age and he is going to play as a central defender for many, many years to come. When Jose Mourinho took over Chelsea, he got in Petr Cech, Paulo Ferreira and Ricardo Carvalho in one summer, the next year they finished with 95 points and shipped in 15 goals.

 

The "huge" transformation you are mentioning isn't quite that big if you know who to bring in, it can be solved in two weeks. The problem is of course David Moyes, does he have the nous to pull it off? He wanted Cesc Fabregas, Ander Herrera and other top players, and he got Juan Mata, so who knows. It's not like they are bringing in Sylvain Distin. I wouldn't be very surprised if United went after someone like Mats Hummels in the summer, and who would complain if Vidic was replaced by him? Depends to be seen, first they have to reach 4th spot in the league and to do that they need Vidic back for most of their games. United will bring in a defensive midfielder in the summer for sure, a player needed to give the defense some more protection. I think you underestimate the power of money and the force United have in the market to bring in new players to patch things up quickly. Just like Chelsea; when John Terry and Ashley Cole are throwing in the towel you know Mourinho is going to fix that problem in no time with new top-class players. Azpilicueta and Cole have pretty much played the same amount of time this season, but I doubt the former will be first choice when Cole quits and they have to bring in another player.

[Con]

Papillon I will reply to your dissertation on Man Utd later this evening.

[Voinjama]

I know it sounds bad, but when I see a huge block of writing like that I just can't be bothered. I have to do enough reading at work so in my spare time when I'm on VT I can't be bothered. There may of been some valid points made though, who knows.

[NurembergVillan]

[ChrisVillan]

Hey look, a long post on Man Utd from definitely-not-NORWAY.

[Xela]

They need to sign Jay Rodriguez

[Con]

Ever heard about Murphy's Law? This year United have seen a domino effect of unfortunate events, which IMO was very likely to happen when Ferguson left the building. On top of that, injuries have piled up for many of their best players. Not just in defense like I will argue, but also in midfield and up top. Van Persie has played 1050 minutes, Vidic and Carrick have missed 9 games.  

 

What's happening to Man Utd is best explained by the law of gravity. What goes up must come down. 

 

Injuries injuries injuries blah blah...

 

They're getting injured because they're getting old. Carrick, Vidic and arguably Van Persie are all past it. Past their peak playing days, any way

 

 

Man Utd did not have the best squad last season, but they won the title by 11 points. This year they have the exact same team except for Januzaj, Fellaini and now Juan Mata. Sure the defenders have become one year older, but that is just part of the problem. It goes without saying that a team that wins the league can challenge the next season if everyone is there. The players have aged a few months from May to August, but you get my point. What has changed United is the transition from a historic manager to a new one as well as injuries. Some years injuries reach impossible numbers and it's quite random who gets them.

 

 

 

 

 

One difference is that defence that conceded a staggering 43 goals last season is a year older and crapper.

 

Older players, older strikers means more injury problems.

 

Late Ferguson era was all about short-term fixes for short term goals - beat Liverpool's total while Ferguson was manager so he could go out on a high.

 

Problem is that was not a sustainable strategy for the long term, the new manager.

 

John Terry (33) played 950 minutes last season and he is Chelsea's Vidic basically, this year he has completed every single minute of every single game they have played in the league. This gives stability and leadership whenever they play, which we all know is the most important thing in putting together a defensive unit. Gary Cahill has virtually played every single game as well, except for when he has been rested for David Luiz.

 

 

 

Vidic would love to be Man Utd's Terry. If he was he wouldn't be leaving at the end of this season and would be in a winning team.

 

The best players don't always have to spend six months getting used to a new league, at least not in defense. With Rafael, Jones, Evans and Smalling they have young players with a lot of versatility, in other words great backup players for even better players. People forget that Jones is even younger than Nathan Baker, he has 9 games for England at 21 years of age and he is going to play as a central defender for many, many years to come. When Jose Mourinho took over Chelsea, he got in Petr Cech, Paulo Ferreira and Ricardo Carvalho in one summer, the next year they finished with 95 points and shipped in 15 goals.

 

 

 

You are not talking about the best players though, are you? Where is the speculation linking Jones and Evans to Champions League teams? If they are that good they would be playing at the highest level.

 

 

 

The "huge" transformation you are mentioning isn't quite that big if you know who to bring in, it can be solved in two weeks. The problem is of course David Moyes, does he have the nous to pull it off? He wanted Cesc Fabregas, Ander Herrera and other top players, and he got Juan Mata, so who knows. 

 

 

 

I think the problem was the short-termist policies at the end of the Fergie era. Totally screwed up the transition for the next manager, if you define "screw up" as frequently losing to teams like Stoke, getting beaten at home and finishing out of the Champions League even below Tottenham.

 

 

It's not like they are bringing in Sylvain Distin. I wouldn't be very surprised if United went after someone like Mats Hummels in the summer, and who would complain if Vidic was replaced by him? Depends to be seen, first they have to reach 4th spot in the league and to do that they need Vidic back for most of their games. United will bring in a defensive midfielder in the summer for sure, a player needed to give the defense some more protection. I think you underestimate the power of money and the force United have in the market to bring in new players to patch things up quickly. 

 

 

 

 

I'm absolutely not saying Man Utd won't be back at the top. I'm just not predicting when other than not next season and 4 new defenders.

 

 

 

David Moyes is content to let his current crop of central defenders have first shot at filling the gap created by Nemanja Vidic's decision to quit Manchester United at the end of the season

 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/moyes-vidic-decision-was-mutual.1391787288

 

 

Politest way of telling Man Utd fans they cannot or won't compete with the Champions League teams for the top defensive talent this summer.

 

Champions League is not just about the wage. It's about the  valuable spin-offs, endorsements, personal sponsorship opportunities that come from Corporate marketing departments who all want to be associated with a Champions League player.

[JMilnereatsnails]

Ever heard about Murphy's Law? This year United have seen a domino effect of unfortunate events, which IMO was very likely to happen when Ferguson left the building. On top of that, injuries have piled up for many of their best players. Not just in defense like I will argue, but also in midfield and up top. Van Persie has played 1050 minutes, Vidic and Carrick have missed 9 games.  

 

You and your statistics, why do you even follow football when everything is about numbers? It's like you want everything to follow an algorithm and then the best team will always win no matter what. This is not FM or FIFA, a machine does not determine every game, coincidence or outcome. Man Utd did not have the best squad last season, but they won the title by 11 points. This year they have the exact same team except for Januzaj, Fellaini and now Juan Mata. Sure the defenders have become one year older, but that is just part of the problem. It goes without saying that a team that wins the league can challenge the next season if everyone is there. The players have aged a few months from May to August, but you get my point. What has changed United is the transition from a historic manager to a new one as well as injuries. Some years injuries reach impossible numbers and it's quite random who gets them.

 

Rio Ferdinand played 2322 minutes last season and this year he has only played 630. He is old and over the top of course, but still a better defender than most when fit. Nemanja Vidic has been one of the best defenders in Europe for many years, but this season he has only played 1305 minutes due to injuries and suspension. He is "only" 32 years and their natural leader, it goes without saying that him out is a big blow. John Terry (33) played 950 minutes last season and he is Chelsea's Vidic basically, this year he has completed every single minute of every single game they have played in the league. This gives stability and leadership whenever they play, which we all know is the most important thing in putting together a defensive unit. Gary Cahill has virtually played every single game as well, except for when he has been rested for David Luiz. Chelsea have the best defense in terms of letting in goals this season, but it's not like their roster is that much better than United IMO. Jonny Evans is underrated but very solid. He goes under the radar just like Michael Carrick did for many years, but he too has been injured at the same time as Vidic. Against Stoke they had to pull out both Evans and Jones and put Carrick at the back because Vidic was suspended. Evra has been present for most games and he holds a high level still, even though this might be his last season. Rafael, the undisputed first choice at right back has been injured for most of the season and has only completed 899 minutes out of a possible 2160.

 

Now I am not glorifying their team too much, we all know they need major change. But this is not new. Every club has to change a few players now and again, just like Chelsea have to do with Terry and Cole in due time. Behind Terry you have Cahill and Luiz, who is virtually a defensive midfielder due to his erratic style. A long-term injury to Terry or Cahill would have wrecked Chelsea's season before it even started - but they have been lucky. United have not. Had Vidic stayed free of injuries alongside Evans it would have looked much better, you cannot prove their defensive faults when their best players aren't even playing. Injuries are part of the game and you can of course argue the fact that United have many players with a history with injuries. You can and must sustain one long-term injury to one of your players in a worst-case scenario, the best teams plan for that kind of thing, but when Rafael and Vidic are out all the time they have to change around and they never get the stability. You argue that they have to buy a whole new squad, but that isn't necessarily the biggest problem in the world. They have the money and they can guarantee a place in the XI for many players wanting to play for them. The best players don't always have to spend six months getting used to a new league, at least not in defense. With Rafael, Jones, Evans and Smalling they have young players with a lot of versatility, in other words great backup players for even better players. People forget that Jones is even younger than Nathan Baker, he has 9 games for England at 21 years of age and he is going to play as a central defender for many, many years to come. When Jose Mourinho took over Chelsea, he got in Petr Cech, Paulo Ferreira and Ricardo Carvalho in one summer, the next year they finished with 95 points and shipped in 15 goals.

 

The "huge" transformation you are mentioning isn't quite that big if you know who to bring in, it can be solved in two weeks. The problem is of course David Moyes, does he have the nous to pull it off? He wanted Cesc Fabregas, Ander Herrera and other top players, and he got Juan Mata, so who knows. It's not like they are bringing in Sylvain Distin. I wouldn't be very surprised if United went after someone like Mats Hummels in the summer, and who would complain if Vidic was replaced by him? Depends to be seen, first they have to reach 4th spot in the league and to do that they need Vidic back for most of their games. United will bring in a defensive midfielder in the summer for sure, a player needed to give the defense some more protection. I think you underestimate the power of money and the force United have in the market to bring in new players to patch things up quickly. Just like Chelsea; when John Terry and Ashley Cole are throwing in the towel you know Mourinho is going to fix that problem in no time with new top-class players. Azpilicueta and Cole have pretty much played the same amount of time this season, but I doubt the former will be first choice when Cole quits and they have to bring in another play

am I **** reading that.

[LondonLax]

As BOF mentioned, a lot if United's injuries are down to Moyes, not just bad luck.

If Feguson was still managing these players with his tailored training schedules he would have had their star players available for far more games and would achieve better results than Moyes is getting.

[villa89]

 

i agree they'll want money, but there's plenty of clubs around europe now paying bigger money than utd

 

 

There aren't though. AFAIK RVP is the highest paid player in England and rooney is also on monsterous wages. Alot of their meidorce players like Ashley Young, Nani, Anderson etc. are all on huges wages. Utd.'s wage bill has always been one of the highest in world football. Money is no object for them because they make so much revenue.

[Con]

As BOF mentioned, a lot if United's injuries are down to Moyes, not just bad luck.

If Feguson was still managing these players with his tailored training schedules he would have had their star players available for far more games and would achieve better results than Moyes is getting.

 

Do we know for sure Moyes has not kept the same training schedules Ferguson used for these players? Who gave us this bit of information?

 

Moyes has been in frequent contact with Ferguson. If he's not using those tailored training regimes it's not for want of knowing about them. Perhaps he has kept the same training regime for these players but they have just gotten older and even more injury prone.

[VillaChris]

Just amuses that Papillion wouldn't do an half page essay on any other team having a poor season....so what with Vidic being out? Man. United have lost games he's started this season. So what RVP has been injured, Rooney has been excellent this season.

 

That's the equivilant of Vlaar and Benteke being injured and they have missed chunks yet I don't see you repeating this on every post in the main forum. You Villa or Man. United fan, me no understand!

 

However looking at it objectively I'd rule them out for 4th now even if they win convincingly this season.

 

Liverpool are now on 50 points and have a ridiculous goal difference. Usually teams in 4th finish on something like 70-72 points, certainly that's always the figure we were short of when we were going for 4th finishing in the low 60s.

 

Liverpool need 7 wins from their last 13 games to reach 71 points. That's just over 50% ratio so they don't even need that great form to do it.

 

To get to 73 points United would need to win 11 of their last 14 league games.

 

I don't need any graphs to tell me Man. United in the top 4 won't be happening this season. My heart bleeds.

[VillaChris]

RVP's training schedule has been changed, I thought that was widely known? He hardly missed a game last season.

 

No idea on the others but carrying the amount of 30 year old + players the do it's inevitable those knocks picked up will take longer to shake off.