Stevo985 Posted February 15, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted February 15, 2023 31 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said: "In the eyes of the law". You did read that part didn't you? Then again, probably not. I read it, thanks. Like I said, your definition of "cleared of any wrongdoing" is very different to everyone else's. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post bobzy Posted February 15, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted February 15, 2023 53 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said: "In the eyes of the law". You did read that part didn't you? Then again, probably not. I merely made an observation about the role of society today in certain criminal matters. And from some of the reactions on here that observation is somewhat validated. I'm sure the CPS listened to the audio, numerous times, and yet, that still wasn't evidence enough for him to be taken to trial. Apparently, witnesses could no longer be relied upon and new information had come to light. So there's another side to this story, which, it seems, a lot of people just don't want to hear. I wasn't defending anyone's actions, once again, just making an observation about the role of the court of public opinion today. Sadly, rape convictions are incredibly rare and "hard to prove". The societal issue isn't people calling out Greenwood for attempting to rape his girlfriend (and by all accounts, assaulting her too), it's people like you saying he's been cleared of wrong doing and, therefore, should just be treated normally. 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post HanoiVillan Posted February 15, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted February 15, 2023 1 hour ago, sheepyvillian said: "In the eyes of the law". You did read that part didn't you? Then again, probably not. I merely made an observation about the role of society today in certain criminal matters. And from some of the reactions on here that observation is somewhat validated. I'm sure the CPS listened to the audio, numerous times, and yet, that still wasn't evidence enough for him to be taken to trial. Apparently, witnesses could no longer be relied upon and new information had come to light. So there's another side to this story, which, it seems, a lot of people just don't want to hear. I wasn't defending anyone's actions, once again, just making an observation about the role of the court of public opinion today. The phrase 'cleared of any wrongdoing' clearly implies that some sort of process found that he had not done anything wrong, but that simply isn't what has happened. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 16 minutes ago, bobzy said: Sadly, rape convictions are incredibly rare and "hard to prove". The societal issue isn't people calling out Greenwood for attempting to rape his girlfriend (and by all accounts, assaulting her too), it's people like you saying he's been cleared of wrong doing and, therefore, should just be treated normally. 38 minutes ago, bobzy said: Sadly, rape convictions are incredibly rare and "hard to prove". The societal issue isn't people calling out Greenwood for attempting to rape his girlfriend (and by all accounts, assaulting her too), it's people like you saying he's been cleared of wrong doing and, therefore, should just be treated normally. He's an immature 18yr old kid who has made an horrendous mistake. He doesn't deserve the chance to redeem himself? Why shouldn't he be treated normally, what would you have, him being lynched? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 Just now, HanoiVillan said: The phrase 'cleared of any wrongdoing' clearly implies that some sort of process found that he had not done anything wrong, but that simply isn't what has happened. In the eyes of the law, he hasn't been convicted of any offence. I'm not defending his actions, I just don't adhere to the lynch -mob mentality . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said: He's an immature 18yr old kid who has made an horrendous mistake. He doesn't deserve the chance to redeem himself? Why shouldn't he be treated normally, what would you have, him being lynched? The guy hasn't apologised, claimed any responsibility for what he's done and has received absolutely no punishment for horrific behaviour. He threatened to rape (possibly has?), physically assaulted and controlled his (ex?) girlfriend. All of the evidence is there, but it's circumstantial if she withdraws as a key witness which is what appears to have happened. Personally, I'd have him prosecuted properly. Apparently you think he's done nothing wrong. Edit: He's also 21, by the way. Edited February 15, 2023 by bobzy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wict01 Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 Has there been any noise on the potential outcome of United's internal investigation about MG? Whatever happens there will be telling, as others have said I'd be surprised if their sponsors didn't have a big say in it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 9 minutes ago, bobzy said: The guy hasn't apologised, claimed any responsibility for what he's done and has received absolutely no punishment for horrific behaviour. He threatened to rape (possibly has?), physically assaulted and controlled his (ex?) girlfriend. All of the evidence is there, but it's circumstantial if she withdraws as a key witness which is what appears to have happened. Personally, I'd have him prosecuted properly. Apparently you think he's done nothing wrong. Edit: He's also 21, by the way. No punishment aside from his career (which would have been highly lucrative) being in ruins before it’s had a chance to get started and an entire nation believing him to be a wrong’un rapist. I’d say the only punishment he’s not had is jail time. I’m not defending him but it does raise the discussion on being considered as guilty before a trial has even taken place, there is a chance, however small that he’s not a rapist, no doubt a bellend but that’s not a criminal thing. Mendy looks likely to escape any convictions for his multiple charges too, what do we do with these folks after the CPS / courts have decided they have nothing to answer for? Castigate then from society entirely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 (edited) 22 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said: In the eyes of the law, he hasn't been convicted of any offence. I'm not defending his actions, I just don't adhere to the lynch -mob mentality . We're going to have to agree to disagree about 'the lynch-mob mentality', but I'm not saying you're defending his actions. We both agree he hasn't been convicted of anything, because that's true. What I am disagreeing with is that he has been 'cleared of any wrongdoing'. Here are some search results for the phrase 'cleared of any wrongdoing': What you can see in these cases is that in each, there has been either an investigation or a trial, and that the results of these investigations and/or trials have shown that the person accused of 'wrongdoing' did not do what they were accused of, or were not to blame. That is not the situation for Greenwood. There wasn't a trial, not because the police concluded he did nothing wrong, but because the Crown Prosecution Service concluded that with a/the key witness changing their testimony, there was no realistic prospect of a conviction. A true statement: He hasn't been convicted, and all charges against him have been dropped. A false statement: He has been cleared of any wrongdoing. They're just a different thing. Edited February 15, 2023 by HanoiVillan 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 1 minute ago, bannedfromHandV said: No punishment aside from his career (which would have been highly lucrative) being in ruins before it’s had a chance to get started and an entire nation believing him to be a wrong’un rapist. I’d say the only punishment he’s not had is jail time. I’m not defending him but it does raise the discussion on being considered as guilty before a trial has even taken place, there is a chance, however small that he’s not a rapist, no doubt a bellend but that’s not a criminal thing. Mendy looks likely to escape any convictions for his multiple charges too, what do we do with these folks after the CPS / courts have decided they have nothing to answer for? Castigate then from society entirely? Unlike with Mendy (as far as I'm aware?) there's publicly available evidence of Mason Greenwood threatening to rape his girlfriend. She's posted photographic and video evidence of him having assaulted her. It's entirely reasonable to say he's guilty of these things - but if she withdraws as key witness, then legally not much can happen. It's not really about having him/them castigated from society. But should they continue as a professional footballer, being a role model for millions? It's a no from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Stevo985 Posted February 15, 2023 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted February 15, 2023 27 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said: He's an immature 18yr old kid who has made an horrendous mistake. He doesn't deserve the chance to redeem himself? Why shouldn't he be treated normally, what would you have, him being lynched? This is dangerously close to "boys will be boys" Rape and assault are not mistakes 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted February 15, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted February 15, 2023 25 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said: In the eyes of the law, he hasn't been convicted of any offence . That's not what you said though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted February 15, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted February 15, 2023 30 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said: what would you have, him being lynched? Also... what?! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 Just now, Stevo985 said: That's not what you said though Listen Just now, Stevo985 said: This is dangerously close to "boys will be boys" Rape and assault are not mistakes Listen! Put your silly cliches to one side. Then go and look up the word horrendous and mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 1 minute ago, sheepyvillian said: Listen! Put your silly cliches to one side. Then go and look up the word horrendous and mistake. You're batshit crazy if you think this is a case of "making a mistake". 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 9 minutes ago, bobzy said: Unlike with Mendy (as far as I'm aware?) there's publicly available evidence of Mason Greenwood threatening to rape his girlfriend. She's posted photographic and video evidence of him having assaulted her. It's entirely reasonable to say he's guilty of these things - but if she withdraws as key witness, then legally not much can happen. It's not really about having him/them castigated from society. But should they continue as a professional footballer, being a role model for millions? It's a no from me. What kind of job do you think someone who hasn’t been convicted of a crime should be able to do freely? I understand what you’re saying, I’m not doing this to be facetious but it’s a sad fact that these days people are motivated to do some really bad things if there’s the potential for something to be in it for them. Who knows what the truth of the matter(s) really is (even with damning audio, you still can’t say for 100% sure what was going on at that moment without further supporting evidence). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 4 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: What kind of job do you think someone who hasn’t been convicted of a crime should be able to do freely? Do you think someone has only ever done wrong if they're convicted of a crime? No conviction = no wrong doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted February 15, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted February 15, 2023 9 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said: Listen It's a forum. I'm reading not listening. You said he had been cleared of any wrongdoing. That's not true. You then said he hadn't been convicted of anything. That is true. 10 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said: Listen! Put your silly cliches to one side. Then go and look up the word horrendous and mistake. I know what those words mean. Do you? Rape and assault are not mistakes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 It wasn't a mistake. It was a pattern of behaviour. Running somebody over is a mistake. Doing it over and over again clearly shows a pattern of behaviour. What's most baffling for me is that, the audio, she almost tried to 'sting' him. He recorded herself, clearly stating his name, what he wanted to do etc, so she clearly wanted this to go somewhere, but for whatever reason (and it isn't fair for us to speculate) she's gone back on that. If he had immediately come out and apologised, took responsibility etc then people would maybe, MAYBE be more sympathetic here, but instead what's happened is that there is clear evidence of what he's done, he's never showed any remorse or apology and now he's getting off. Is it a shock that 'the court of public opinion' is fuming? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted February 15, 2023 Share Posted February 15, 2023 52 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said: In the eyes of the law, he hasn't been convicted of any offence. I'm not defending his actions, I just don't adhere to the lynch -mob mentality . I hear what you are saying. But if I can give any advice, don't die on that specific hill. No one is lynching Greenwood. He has faced major punishment already (he lost a dream job and will unlikely have any place in public sports) and is a pariah of his club. All sponsorship is gone. He lost his millions and a life of luxury. But let's call a spade a spade - without trial (there wasn't one, so he is not cleared of anything) we can safely say, the tapes suggest he is not worthy respect or good opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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