peterms Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Ok then, the other was an obviously stupid decision. They both were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Will people celebrate when other people responsible for Britain’s state die? If you're talking about the Gordon Browns & Fred Goodwins of this world then yes, I'm all in What about all the union leaders who led their men into pointless strikes? ones who refused to modernise? Britain is in the place it is not just because of governments, but because business leadership and unions were so inept. Or because of stupid ideological whims, such as Labour’s obsession with getting rid of grammar schools. People need to remove the political blinkers and see that blaming one person isn’t the reason we aren’t where we should be. Can I blame a group of people then? The Thatcher Government. Who was the leader of that horrendous movement again ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 As an aside, we all know that Thatcher ascribed her philosophy, values and moral outlook to her father, Alderman Roberts. Fewer people know that he was a sordid groper of young women, using his place as their employer to undertake repeated sexual harassment, feeling them up behind the counter, copping a crafty squeeze when he could. Didn't mind if they were only 15, either. Here. They were in no position to do anything other than take it or leave, with him being a prominent businessman and preacher as well as their employer. Adds a whole new dimension to "management's right to manage". And family values, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PauloBarnesi Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Will people celebrate when other people responsible for Britain’s state die? If you're talking about the Gordon Browns & Fred Goodwins of this world then yes, I'm all in What about all the union leaders who led their men into pointless strikes? ones who refused to modernise? Britain is in the place it is not just because of governments, but because business leadership and unions were so inept. Or because of stupid ideological whims, such as Labour’s obsession with getting rid of grammar schools. People need to remove the political blinkers and see that blaming one person isn’t the reason we aren’t where we should be. Can I blame a group of people then? The Thatcher Government. Who was the leader of that horrendous movement again ... So you think they are to blame for everything that went wrong in 20th C Britain? We must have lived through different times because I am sure Thatcher wasn’t the only prime minister of this time, nor the only union leader, nor the only crap and lazy business man... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted April 10, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted April 10, 2013 Hopefully the funeral procession will be littered with protests and incident. She should have been buried quietly in private but no , the provocation goes on. What an odd statement. You hope the funeral is protested on? I think it will be but I would wish that on any human. How bizarre. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 What difference does it make whether people were alive when she destroyed the lives of millions ? I didn't have to be alive when Hitler was around to form a view of what he was like. Was about to post this. How many people celebrate Hitler's death and were not around in the 1940's? I think it's safe to say there's a slight difference. Absolutely agree. Comparing Thatcher to Hitler is utterly disgraceful especially in an attempt to justify a reaction. Blair said something yesterday and I dont think I have ever agreed with him more , when you decide you divide. Duuuhhh !!! Spectacularly missing the point - insert any event/death/historical event - the point is you dont have to have been alive during a thing to have views about it !!!!!!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 My point is, with a political figure who so massively divided opinion, there is no way you can form an objective argument unless you actually saw first hand what she did. You form an opinion on literature (written from the point of view of somebody with an opinion), family/friends who will definitely have an opinion one way or the other or from TV programs (again probably with an agenda one way or the other). What an odd view. So being around during Thatcher's period in office (for example) allows you to form an objective view, while not being there means you can't? The only basis for an objective view is direct, unmediated personal experience? So working down a coal mine or being placed in charge of the privatisation programme gives you an objective, not an extremely subjective, view? And are objective views made possible simply by being around at the time, or must you have been personally involved in something? Given that no-one is personally involved in anything more than the tiniest fraction of what happens at any time, that's a pretty thin set of objective views that can exist. And why would being personally involved in something mean that you even understand it, let alone are able to form an objective assessment of it? As a theory of knowledge, it's novel, at least. Quite 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted April 10, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted April 10, 2013 What difference does it make whether people were alive when she destroyed the lives of millions ?I didn't have to be alive when Hitler was around to form a view of what he was like. Was about to post this. How many people celebrate Hitler's death and were not around in the 1940's? I think it's safe to say there's a slight difference. Absolutely agree. Comparing Thatcher to Hitler is utterly disgraceful especially in an attempt to justify a reaction. Blair said something yesterday and I dont think I have ever agreed with him more , when you decide you divide. Duuuhhh !!! Spectacularly missing the point - insert any event/death/historical event - the point is you dont have to have been alive during a thing to have views about it !!!!!!! Nobody said that. You're plucking nonsense out of thin air here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Hopefully the funeral procession will be littered with protests and incident. She should have been buried quietly in private but no , the provocation goes on. What an odd statement. You hope the funeral is protested on? I think it will be but I would wish that on any human. How bizarre. Oh I don't know, I'd kind of like to have left a mark in someway on this world, rather than slip out the door with minimal fuss. Not sure I'd want wide spread protests at my funeral but it's a turnout at least Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted April 10, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted April 10, 2013 And I think it's fair to say you missed the point by comparing a politician polarised opInion to a dictator who killed millions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjw63 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Godwins Law FTW 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 This question is quicker to answer you if you reverse it. It's a bit like pure maths. Which privatised industry has worked out better for the vast majority? Arguably telecoms. Which ones have worked out worse for the vast majority? The rest. Look at the NHS complete chaos and that is not privatised, not every industry is a mess since it was privatised. i have private health insurance and the service is so much better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted April 10, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted April 10, 2013 Godwins Law FTW It's brilliant. Every argument proves it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted April 10, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted April 10, 2013 No, the NHS is not privatised. It is starved of resources, vilified and **** over by the Tories and their lapdog press at every available opportunity. So when people complain about its failings, they'll have the excuse to say: "See? It's shit. Let's get rid of it and you can all go private" (Good luck with getting affordable health insurance if you actually dare to have anything wrong with you). words removed. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 I was quite clear to say my reference was nothing to do with comparing the influence of the people involved in my comparison...In order to try and put them on the same level after you had already drawn a comparison between the level of revulsion involved (which surely bears relation to actions taken and influence of the people involved).I wonder why you then think it 'utterly disgraceful' to do the same with Thatcher and another unless it is a defence of the object of the revulsion rather than a real objection to the revulsion itself?again I think, for whatever reason, you are missing the actual point, although the response is pretty predictable. My commentary is on the dignity and decency we should show upon someone's death. You will see I have not once debated what Baroness Thatcher did or didn't do in her role as pm, partly because to do so would add no value to any debate. People can guess which side of the coin I would be oming from and I know which side others would be coming from. Views on both sides are intransigent , I would not change any minds and similarly others will not change mine. Much like a post made earlier by Houston. The comparison with hitler , and why it is disgraceful, was a direct reference to actions both had done. "Destroyed the lives of millions" was the phrase used and in the next breath hitler was the comparison, obviously comparing actions. My commentary there was that it is a disgrace to compare actions as it was obviously done. I will repeat again, my commentary on the celebratory nature of the reaction to the death of Baroness Thatcher was the reason for the reference to Ellis, not in terms of what they both did or didn't do. Two differs arguements as I am capable of multi tasking and having differen t opinions on different things. Hope that is clearer as my earlier post was obviously not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eames Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 No, the NHS is not privatised. It is starved of resources, vilified and **** over by the Tories and their lapdog press at every available opportunity. So when people complain about its failings, they'll have the excuse to say: "See? It's shit. Let's get rid of it and you can all go private" (Good luck with getting affordable health insurance if you actually dare to have anything wrong with you). words removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodders Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 even if it's a poor example, the idea you can't have an opinion on events that preceded your existence is absurd. Especially so when people around you tell you this person or event will go down as a significant marker in collective consciousness and history - and should be considered one of the greatest leaders in OUR history, then yes I am going to look into this statement and see if she represents values that I share or would be proud of. I did look into it, and quite easily developed the opinion that she does not and it's discombobulating and saddening that so many other people think there are values there that we as a group should embody or praise. To lack any empathy for the human cost of decisions, homophobia, to acknowledge fascist murderers as close friends, and to embrace an economic doctrine that puts wealth accumulation on a pedestal above all else. Even acknowledging there are political decisions that needed to made, it's the fashion that they were that is so depressing. Her accumulated actions are so far out of kilter with an ideal form of what I'd like to see represent this country, that is why the eulogising angers me, from the perspective of someone who was only a kid in the eighties. What exactly should I be proud of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PauloBarnesi Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 No, the NHS is not privatised. It is starved of resources, vilified and **** over by the Tories and their lapdog press at every available opportunity. But one of the biggest problems with the NHS is that its **** by over demand. Its like the railways; over demand and under investment, but you could throw billions more at it, and still it wouldn’t be able to solve the problem. We need to seek solutions to the cause of these problems, not the problems itself. Britain needs to become a healthier nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted April 10, 2013 Moderator Share Posted April 10, 2013 Don't know if anyone's mentioned the fact that people in Scotland pay the least water charges in Britain.The reason being, Scottish Water was never privatised, it is still in public hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PauloBarnesi Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Don't know if anyone's mentioned the fact that people in Scotland pay the least water charges in Britain. The reason being, Scottish Water was never privatised, it is still in public hands. Its because they hardly drink the stuff 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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