bobzy Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 The league has imo gotten better meaning higher points totals aren't required to reach higher in the table, so we may have had less points in the last few seasons, but it doesn't necessarily mean we as a team are much worse. That's some crazy thinking to try and justify record lows. It makes sense though, doesn't it? Not saying that we are better as a team, but if everyone coming up is able to improve dramatically (spend a lot on transfers) on a relatively low wage base (Championship wages) then it makes it tougher for "established teams". Southampton, Swansea, to a longer-term extent West Brom and Stoke... they've come up and been able to compete with mid-table teams immediately. Norwich have been lower down, but still in the league whilst more established outfits (Bolton, West Ham, Newcastle etc.) have struggled and seen relegation. Obviously record lows are terrible but it's easy to see why it might happen in the current climate. I doubt we'll ever see another Derby 11 points season, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Even in that case it doesn't look good. You're basically saying we can't compete with newly promoted teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 BJ10 completely missing the point being made, again I see. No I got it, it just wasn't very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suttonpaul Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 What are we debating? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 What are we debating? Well some are suggesting that the state of the club is where we should be and some are suggesting that it hasn't really been that bad, it's just the bottom half being tight makes it seem worse than it really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suttonpaul Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 My view is we should have finished with 5 or 10 points more than last season which doesn't look like that will be done but the larger project is still on course to be moved on in the summer. The fans should be on board when they see the larger value players coming in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob182 Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 BJ10 completely missing the point being made, again I see. No I got it, it just wasn't very good. No, you missed the point. The point being made was that our AVERAGE league position under Randy Lerner is the same as the 7 previous years. 3 years in the bottom half and 3 years finishing 6th has given us the same AVERAGE league position as previously. No, it doesn't make a relegation battle right or good. But yes, you missed the point and/or twisted it to fit your "People have lowered their expectations" stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 BJ10 completely missing the point being made, again I see.No I got it, it just wasn't very good. No, you missed the point. The point being made was that our AVERAGE league position under Randy Lerner is the same as the 7 previous years. 3 years in the bottom half and 3 years finishing 6th has given us the same AVERAGE league position as previously. No, it doesn't make a relegation battle right or good. But yes, you missed the point and/or twisted it to fit your "People have lowered their expectations" stance. And like I said that average is great for anyone who doesn't attend or generally doesn't follow the club. And if you think we are where we should be after the last few years then I fail to see how you haven't lowered expectations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suttonpaul Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 So anyone unhappy doesn't support the club? Adjusted expectations when starting a new way of working is to be expected. I expected things to get worse before they get better, I expect few players of a higher value to come in the summer. If that doesn't happen I wont be happy and depending on what happens I will know to blame Lerner or Lambert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villabromsgrove Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 So anyone unhappy doesn't support the club? Adjusted expectations when starting a new way of working is to be expected. I expected things to get worse before they get better, I expect few players of a higher value to come in the summer. If that doesn't happen I wont be happy and depending on what happens I will know to blame Lerner or Lambert. I agree, whether fans believe that our current state has been bought about by bad management, inexperience or just plain stupidity, there are valid reasons for the recent period of financial constraint. This summer's transfer window is JUDGEMENT time for Lerner, Faulkner and Lambert! If we don't sign three quality players which means paying proper premiership wages, then I think there will be no disguising the fact that Villa are history. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 I don't get why he can't be judged on what we're seeing? We were 6th with the 6th highest wage bill in the league. Surely no one believes these past 4 years were the only way to fix the issues we had when MON left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suttonpaul Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 That would lead me back to the question no one would answer previously what SHOULD have been done, how would it have been paid for and how would it fit with FFP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villabromsgrove Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 We know what Lerner has done John, but at the moment he's the only one who can begin to put it right. I've tried to be supportive even though we've got ourselves into a right mess. If we don't get relegated then this summer is Randy's last chance to attempt to put the situation right. More of the same will finish us imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 That would lead me back to the question no one would answer previously what SHOULD have been done, how would it have been paid for and how would it fit with FFP? Well hiring two awful managers and adding average players on huge contracts was a very stupid decision when we acknowledged our wages were an issue after finishing 6th. If we'd addressed the problem properly and with a better manager (don't forget we'd just finished 6th and I'm sure offeree houllier a good wage) we would not have dropped as much. We had an issue and we spent two more years making that issue much worse because of the owners decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villabromsgrove Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 That would lead me back to the question no one would answer previously what SHOULD have been done, how would it have been paid for and how would it fit with FFP? Well hiring two awful managers and adding average players on huge contracts was a very stupid decision when we acknowledged our wages were an issue after finishing 6th. If we'd addressed the problem properly and with a better manager (don't forget we'd just finished 6th and I'm sure offeree houllier a good wage) we would not have dropped as much. We had an issue and we spent two more years making that issue much worse because of the owners decisions. I think it's a case of what we shouldn't have done. Unfortunately what's done is done and it's now about what RL, PF and PL are willing and able to do about it. Cortese did a ruthlessly effective job for Southampton, but it was expensive. Has Randy learned by studying other clubs like Southampton ….I hope so, but I doubt it. That's why for me this summer is crucial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suttonpaul Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 You told me what we shouldn't have done not what we should have. It's so easy to be negative give realistic detailed plans what should have been done when MON left. Before that he did what he felt best to break the top 4 realised it wasn't going to happen and that it he rolled the dice, lost and redrew the plans and because of that MON walked we all know this so it is about the point he left plans from there please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suttonpaul Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 I agree villabromsgrove all that matters is what happens today and the future as the past is gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG_Villa_Fan Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 You told me what we shouldn't have done not what we should have. It's so easy to be negative give realistic detailed plans what should have been done when MON left. Before that he did what he felt best to break the top 4 realised it wasn't going to happen and that it he rolled the dice, lost and redrew the plans and because of that MON walked we all know this so it is about the point he left plans from there please. First of all they shouldn't have taken Ireland from Man City, just cash, then they should have hired a somewhat competent manager who wouldn't drag a 6th placed team into a relegation fight and wouldn't have needed 30 million to get them out of it. They should have then tried to get rid of all saleable assets on contracts they did not see fitting with their new financial constraints. In the cases that there would be no interest they should have used these players in the squad until their contracts would expire, instead of adding new atrocious contracts, i.e. Hutton, Given, Zoggy. Finally, they should have used part of the money from the sales of Milner, Young and Downing to start gradually the transformation of the club into Wigan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 You told me what we shouldn't have done not what we should have. It's so easy to be negative give realistic detailed plans what should have been done when MON left. Before that he did what he felt best to break the top 4 realised it wasn't going to happen and that it he rolled the dice, lost and redrew the plans and because of that MON walked we all know this so it is about the point he left plans from there please. We should have addressed the wage bill, made sensible, slow cuts and hired a better manager. Look at the wages houllier and McLeish added to an already high wage bill. I agree villabromsgrove all that matters is what happens today and the future as the past is gone. Haha this is what I mean when mistakes that have really effected us are just shrugged off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suttonpaul Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 John we have addressed the wage bill, hired an appropriate manager for the job and slow cuts weren't an option as we were losing way too much money. As for Hutton, N'Zogbia and Given only the former and the later were dumb decisions that people could have predicted before signing them. I believe AMC was brought in to take the flack of cuts if honest. Hindsight is wonderful. As for mistakes shrugged off, what would you prefer we all wallow in self pity or sort it out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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