AvfcTheObsession Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 7 minutes ago, Zatman said: 4 Think he means how many records broken under Lerner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 8 hours ago, blandy said: If we assume that this argument is true ( and I think it's not so much true as a rule, but more a kind of general theory which holds some water, but isn't universally right) - so even if we say it's completely true, the difficulty is that if we just use stats, you'd kind of say, right the way to stop being so crap is to pay more wages - it must be, because the stats prove it. I don't think anyone believes that Villa paying the players more money will save us. You might claim I'm being unfair, as that's not the point you were making. However I could point out that Villa has been paying wages somewhere in the mid range for the last 5 years+. yet we've been finishing down the bottom every season. So quite demonstrably, the wages stat is far from the determining factor. Furthermore, there's a bit of cause and effect to consider. teams that do well earn more TV money, they earn more prize money, they sell more sponsorships and shirts and all the other stuff. Players get win bonuses and new contracts for playing well and getting picked for England etc. on the back of their performances for their clubs. So the players do well, then get more money, rather than it always being "pay them more and they'll do better". Often "pay them more" can lead to them becoming complacent and doing worse, over time, as individuals. I'm not saying that clubs with more money can't or don't go out and buy the best players, pay them high wages and maintain a hold at the top, which means that these clubs have high wage bills and finish high up. Just pointing out that it's not a given that wages necessarily tell you much, on their own. Eloquently put and totally correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 7 hours ago, blandy said: That's a pretty fair diagnosis. I would imagine most fans would agree with a fair part of it, and maybe differ over the odd detail or conclusion, perhaps. I definitely share the view of the deals done. A struggling team that sells its best players and replaces them with cut price youngsters (in the main) is going to struggle even more, 9 out of 10 times. It's why in the pre-season newspaper predictions a lot had Villa tipped for relegation. it's a statement of the bleedin' obvious. I also happen to think that the "hit rate" with youngsters, and players from abroad, especially when paying relatively small fees is quite low. So buying in players unfamiliar with the league is a double risk, in our situation. So yes, the managers have made bad choices, the club has a policy (it seems) on player recruitment that is too idealistic, and too risky. the club changes people too often - managers, staff, players...and all these things are ultimately the responsibility of the (absentee) owner. My post was really about how concentrating on one single metric (wages) and acting on what it "shows" is (IMO) a mistake. About how too much importance given to things that are less significant and that are only a small part of an overall picture can and will lead to bad choices. I agree Pete and I understand the point you was making as much as I understand Mark's apt point too of which I think Villacas was making....we all know money is important, but not to take our eye off the skill of player recruitment. To be fair to the club, we gave paid better wages in the past and it has only marginally made a difference.....there is plenty of evidence at villa that well paid players does not equate necessarily to best performances. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 His silence on the way the club is being run is an epitome of what we find ourselves in.....talk about " Nero fiddles while Rome Burns" is an understatement. He is arrogance of the highest order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted December 9, 2015 Moderator Share Posted December 9, 2015 The whole "Nero fiddles while Gordon Burns" thing - Randy's basically never said anything to anyone publicly, (aside from maybe 2 newspaper things in 10 years). It's not arrogance, I don't think. Ellis was arrogant and he wouldn't shut up, loving the limelight and attention - it sated his vanity. It's inconsistent to (now) claim it's arrogance he doesn't say anything when previously when he didn't say anything (and we were not struggling) "we" all said it was because he was publicity shy, and wanted to let the manager and players take the credit, not him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 1 hour ago, blandy said: The whole "Nero fiddles while Gordon Burns" thing - Randy's basically never said anything to anyone publicly, (aside from maybe 2 newspaper things in 10 years). It's not arrogance, I don't think. Ellis was arrogant and he wouldn't shut up, loving the limelight and attention - it sated his vanity. It's inconsistent to (now) claim it's arrogance he doesn't say anything when previously when he didn't say anything (and we were not struggling) "we" all said it was because he was publicity shy, and wanted to let the manager and players take the credit, not him. Fair Comment Pete,It was the first word that came to mind, but call it what you will, We need him to give us some kind of explanation in to the weird world of Aston Villa. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GENTLEMAN Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 1 hour ago, blandy said: The whole "Nero fiddles while Gordon Burns" thing - Randy's basically never said anything to anyone publicly, (aside from maybe 2 newspaper things in 10 years). It's not arrogance, I don't think. Ellis was arrogant and he wouldn't shut up, loving the limelight and attention - it sated his vanity. It's inconsistent to (now) claim it's arrogance he doesn't say anything when previously when he didn't say anything (and we were not struggling) "we" all said it was because he was publicity shy, and wanted to let the manager and players take the credit, not him. I think us supporters want Randy to show some passion, some leadership - do something different in our current situation. His aloofness has clearly not helped the club, a change in style may help the morale around the club. I would really admire him if he did attended the majority of games to the end of the season, but I doubt he has the courage/passion to be able to achieve that. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I wan't him to show interest 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villarocker Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I want him to share some interest too....off of the 100's of millions of dollars that he has! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982 Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 4 hours ago, blandy said: The whole "Nero fiddles while Gordon Burns" thing - Randy's basically never said anything to anyone publicly, (aside from maybe 2 newspaper things in 10 years). It's not arrogance, I don't think. Ellis was arrogant and he wouldn't shut up, loving the limelight and attention - it sated his vanity. It's inconsistent to (now) claim it's arrogance he doesn't say anything when previously when he didn't say anything (and we were not struggling) "we" all said it was because he was publicity shy, and wanted to let the manager and players take the credit, not him. Action speaks louder than words, but Randy doesn't even do that. What he's done to this great club is a dereliction of duty. And do you know what, I'd take Ellis' vanity over anything that charlatan Lerner has served up in his time here. At least he showed some leadership in his time here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982 Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 "Nero fiddles while Rome burns" is the perfect summing up of Lerner and Aston Villa. Anyone who thinks different needs to take their head out of the sand. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 3 hours ago, avfc1982 said: "Nero fiddles while Rome burns" is the perfect summing up of Lerner and Aston Villa. Anyone who thinks different needs to take their head out of the sand. I am not even sure he can play the fiddle or cares enough to learn how to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meregreen Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I don't even know what his voice sounds like.Says it all really' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post jackbauer24 Posted December 10, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted December 10, 2015 There's all types of arguments and counter arguments about Lerner's spell in charge, from the hope of the past to the dispair of the future. But to me it is really simple. Unless their is a massive sporting upset (as in record setting) then Villa are going down. I don't care if it's due to not spending enough, spending badly, employing the wrong people, not being able to cope with FFP or any other reason - simply put the buck stops with him and no one else. Further more for a club the size of Villa historically and financially to be pretty much nailed on for relegation is so bad that I would argue he is the worst Chairman we have ever had. Gone are the days where 14 players can win the league, gone are days where minnows can rise to the top and stay there, all you need is a biggish team to begin with (Everton, Tottenham, Newcastle, West Ham etc), a modicum of investment and some knowledge from football minds. If you get a team like the ones mentioned relegated you are doing an EXCEPTIONALLY bad job, there is no excuse in this day and age where money makes the biggest impact. Newcastle went down and everyone knows who's to blame for that. For an ever present Prem League club, with a massive historic ground, a decent structure (youth, training etc), the largest fan base in the Midlands, an illustrious history that was bought by Lerner with no debt (I believe) to be relegated in 2015/16 is nothing short of a disgrace of epic proportions and whatever the reasons, whether he's nicer than other Chairmen on a personal scale, shows such incompetence that he will go down as the biggest failure in our history. 30 years ago big teams could have been at risk more reguarly as teams were more closely matched but now the gap is so big there is little excuse for such a monumental failure that sees teams like West Brom, Swansea, Stoke and Souhampton miles ahead of us. There is NO excuse to make this acceptable. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villarocker Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Well said, JackBauer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexbelowsound Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Randy is just a wasteman, innit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post jackbauer24 Posted December 10, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted December 10, 2015 Just to put this in to further perspective, although there could be lots of barometers, this is a list of the 20 most successful clubs in England. You could argue this is what the Premier League should look like: 1. Man Utd - ever present in the Prem (£) era 2. Liverpool - as above 3. Arsenal - as above 4. Chelsea - as above 5. Villa - as above =. Spurs - as above =. Everton - as above ------------------------------------- The above teams could argue there is an element of 'right' to be considered a big team and no excuse to be relegated. 8. Man City - five seasons out the top league, but huge investment and somewhat of an anomaly - a small team acting/becoming big 9. Newcastle - two seasons out the top league, everyone laughs at the complete ineptitude of a Chairman who can get Newcastle United relegated. =. Forest - the first of the 'big boys of old' - only five seasons in the money league, missed the boat to some degree last seen 1999 =. Wolves - only four seasons in the money league 12. Blackburn - 18 seasons, monumentally badly run and everyone laughs at the Venky's ownership --------------- Other than Forest and Wolves who missed the boat, these teams need to epically mess up to be in trouble, Blackburn , Newcastle did! 13. Leeds - god, where to start, the epitome of a poorly run team =. Sheffield Weds - only eight seasons I top flight, missed the big money =. Sunderland - surviving just, despite only 15 seasons in money league =. West Brom - only ten seasons in money league, very much yo-yo but clearly well run 17. West Ham - 20 seasons, but some very dodgy ownership for a while that resulted in investigations etc 18. Portsmouth - another example of a team awfully run =. Burnley - getting in to the teams that are on border anyway =. Bolton - as above ----------------------------------------------- Smaller teams where there is an excuse for relegation, but Leeds and Portsmouth messed up hugely. *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_football_clubs_in_England_by_competitive_honours_won So teams that have been relegated that 'shouldn't' have been - Newcastle (Ashley). Blackburn (Venky), Leeds (Ridsdale and now Cellino) - Lerner will join that group. There really is NO excuse. No team has a divine right to be in the top league BUT you have to perform epically badly both on and off the pitch to get certain teams relegated. I think some people underestimate the blame that should be attached to Lerner for this. This is not the players or the managers, or whether he's paying for past mistakes, or if FFP shafted him. This is a person who bought a debt free Premier League team with a massive fanbase and a huge silverware collection and is about to get them relegated. He joins Ashley, Venky's, Risdale in the worst owners the Premier League has ever seen category. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 My only issue is "not being able to cope with FFP" I don't see it like that, I see it more as why should he cope with FFP? It's the league changing the rules to suit those at the top that we were trying to catch, I actually sympathise with him, it's no longer the league that he invested in, I've said before you can't underestimate the position we were in when the rules were introduced, MON skunked a shit load of money up the wall because he could, we had no shirt sponsor income because we could, then there was a vote and all of a sudden we couldn't and we're royally ****? It was and still is utter bullshit The problem is that if that is actually the reason that he's thrown his toys out of the pram and pulled the plug then his non vocal approach has done him absolutely no favours 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted December 10, 2015 Moderator Share Posted December 10, 2015 18 minutes ago, villa4europe said: The problem is that if that is actually the reason that he's thrown his toys out of the pram and pulled the plug then his non vocal approach has done him absolutely no favours Indeed. A "non-vocal approach" doesn't seem to have harmed Roman Abramovic's standing with Chelsea fans. I think JackBauer24 is right that it's a monumental car crash to get Villa relegated. reasonable car and attention, given the in-built advantage of all that Premier League money really should mean that semi competent management of the club should see it in mid table or better every season. That's the economics, not any kind of arrogance about status or size. But no club has a right to be in any league or any position and they have to always try to be the best they can. Villa stopped with that some time ago. That is Randy Lerner's responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New_Jersey_Villa Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Not to blow Randy's trumpet or anything, but we should also be careful what we wish for. I'd say we are much better off currently than if we got a similar chairman to what Rangers and Portsmouth ended up having to endure. I also shudder every time I hear that a "Consortium" is interested in taking over a football club, that just spells disaster in my book. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts