Manager Paul Lambert

[Morpheus]

 

 

 

 

 

Our away record and performances such as against Fulham you mean.

 

This is just cherry-picking now. What about Southampton, Norwich and Arsenal? What about the fact that before last weekend we hadn't lost away to a team outside the top 4 for over a year? What about the fact that before the Fulham game we'd lost just once away from home all season, and that was a narrow loss to Chelsea to a goal that shouldn't have been allowed.

 

 

Accusing me of cherry picking yet you doing exactly the same with stats.

 

What about the performances against West Ham and Hull and mentioning a goal that shouldn't have been allowed.

 

We were two down against WBA and could have been four down with missed chances. All conjecture and what ifs.

 

I'm not even cherry-picking really, just countering your own cherry-picked example.

 

We have the 6th best away record in the league. That is a fact. If our manager and players really are so bad then how come our away record is so good?

 

 

Not cherry picking Mantis, really?

 

You've just selected one part of our performance in the season ignoring other performances within that selection and totally ignoring the overall to include our home form. You've also criticised posters for using one form of stats yet you have also done the same.

 

Please don't accuse me of something which you are guilty of yourself.

 

 

You responded with one example (the Fulham game) when the away form was mentioned. I responded to that by pointing out that we've won more away from home than we've lost this season.

 

We were talking about the away form FFS! Why would the home form be mentioned there?

 

I'm not guilty of what I'm accusing you of.

 

No we're in the Lambert thread and everything concerning Lambert is open to discussion and that includes home and away form of the team.

 

As pointed out to you in my previous post you are guilty of 'cherry picking' and i've quoted you examples of that and will continue to do so whenever you do it which is on a regular basis. I also see you've failed to back your statement concerning people condemning Lambert to failure no matter what he does which isn't surprising. 

Edited December 16, 2013 by Morpheus

[Mantis]

No we're in the Lambert thread and everything concerning Lambert is open to discussion and that includes home and away form of the team.

 

As pointed out to you in my previous post you are guilty of 'cherry picking' and i've quoted you examples of that and will continue to do so whenever you do it which is on a regular basis.

 

You seem to have forgotten how this discussion originally started. In case you've forgotten, here's a reminder:

 

- Somebody questioned why our home form is so bad

- You suggested that this was due to "crap purchases and a manager that can't get the best out of them"

- I countered this and asked why if that was the case do we have such a good away record by comparison

- You then gave the Fulham game as an example to counter this and I in turn replied to that by pointing out the Arsenal, Norwich and Southampton games

 

This particular conversation wasn't about home form. It was about away form - that's why the home form didn't get mentioned.

 

I haven't cherry-picked.

[VillaCas]

From a Spurs website.....

 

Chiriches - bit early to tell, and to be fair he's missed all their worst drubbings

Paulinho - technically limited midfield workhorse of the kind Brazil have feted since 1994 ("Brazilian 'water carriers' from Dunga onwards" would be a good feature for one of the writers on tactics). Suspect he might look ok if his only job were to close down opposing players and quickly give the ball to someone with an iota of attacking ability when he receives it. Unfortunately, at Tottenham he has no teammate who meets that description and instead subjects the paying public to his own hapless attempts to be a playmaker

Capoue - another midfield plodder. Looks slightly drunk when running with the ball

Chadli - just bizarre that he is playing for a Premier League team with theoretical top 4 ambitions. Lacks pace, passing ability, skill... any attribute that might enable him to prise open a defence

Holtby - Little bit more craft than Chadli, but compare him to the number 10/winger type players at the clubs Spurs are supposedly competing with eg Hazard, Cazorla, David Silva... He is nowhere near. What's the point of having dross like this filling squad places? Just get a smaller number of better players, like Arsenal

Soldado - knocking on 30 million euros for a striker already in his late 20s who seems to have nothing to set him apart from players of the level of Gary Hooper or Shane Long. Suspect he will prove the worst buy of a very bad bunch

Eriksen - Might turn out ok, but utter madness to expect a 21 year old in a new country moving from a much weaker league to be sole creative outlet for a team aiming for the top 4

Lamela - As above. Not such a weak league, but he just seems such a tragic figure destined not to fit in England. I'd wager he'll be back in Italy by the start of next season.

 

Not just Lambert who can't pick up these budding Roy Keanes that are apparently out there waiting to be spotted

 

At least we didn't waste £100m + and the same again  in wages

 

Capoue - looks slightly drunk when running.....classic line! very funny

[drat01]

The Spurs thing is interesting. Surely if Lambert is as good as many are saying then his name would be in the frame for that job?

[DelboyVilla]

From a Spurs website.....

 

Chiriches - bit early to tell, and to be fair he's missed all their worst drubbings

Paulinho - technically limited midfield workhorse of the kind Brazil have feted since 1994 ("Brazilian 'water carriers' from Dunga onwards" would be a good feature for one of the writers on tactics). Suspect he might look ok if his only job were to close down opposing players and quickly give the ball to someone with an iota of attacking ability when he receives it. Unfortunately, at Tottenham he has no teammate who meets that description and instead subjects the paying public to his own hapless attempts to be a playmaker

Capoue - another midfield plodder. Looks slightly drunk when running with the ball

Chadli - just bizarre that he is playing for a Premier League team with theoretical top 4 ambitions. Lacks pace, passing ability, skill... any attribute that might enable him to prise open a defence

Holtby - Little bit more craft than Chadli, but compare him to the number 10/winger type players at the clubs Spurs are supposedly competing with eg Hazard, Cazorla, David Silva... He is nowhere near. What's the point of having dross like this filling squad places? Just get a smaller number of better players, like Arsenal

Soldado - knocking on 30 million euros for a striker already in his late 20s who seems to have nothing to set him apart from players of the level of Gary Hooper or Shane Long. Suspect he will prove the worst buy of a very bad bunch

Eriksen - Might turn out ok, but utter madness to expect a 21 year old in a new country moving from a much weaker league to be sole creative outlet for a team aiming for the top 4

Lamela - As above. Not such a weak league, but he just seems such a tragic figure destined not to fit in England. I'd wager he'll be back in Italy by the start of next season.

 

Not just Lambert who can't pick up these budding Roy Keanes that are apparently out there waiting to be spotted

 

At least we didn't waste £100m + and the same again  in wages

 

Capoue - looks slightly drunk when running.....classic line! very funny

 

This is the same Spurs that have just sacked their manager today?? Well I doubt if they will be knocking on our door to replace Capoue with Sylla or Tonev  anytime soon in a bid to cut their wage bill?

 

They will not be a waste as their new manager will no doubt get this bunch playing better in the next couple of weeks and challenging for the Champions League?

[El-Reacho]

 

 

 

No-one has said we expect to sign 16 superstars on a budget but what we do expect is that they are able to either keep possession or pass to a team mate on a regular basis and you can be a leader on the pitch while not costing much (Roy Keane) just one example.

 

Do you mean like when Roy keane signed for Celtic for free?

 

When he signed for Utd. he was a PL record signing with the two biggest sides in the country chasing him. In today's values he would have gone for around £30m....

[DelboyVilla]

The Spurs thing is interesting. Surely if Lambert is as good as many are saying then his name would be in the frame for that job?

 

We should try starting that rumour and get them wound up! Funnily enough I don't remember Lambert being linked to anyone since he's been with us, strange that?

[StefanAVFC]

The Spurs thing is interesting. Surely if Lambert is as good as many are saying then his name would be in the frame for that job?

 

I think you're confusing 'I don't want Lambert sacked' with 'Lambert is amazing'.

 

Carry on creating strawmen to argue against though

[Guest]

This is a tough one for me as I am someone that actually rates Lambert but I am also someone who refuses to be blinded by that and have to be honest. With that in mind I can't say anything other than that what I have seen us serve up over the last 3 months or so has in the main been dire.

I also have to say that beyond our first 11, which is good enough to finish around mid-table, then the squad as a whole is arguably one of the worst I have seen in my 30 odd years following this great club.

The blame for both the standard of our performances and quality of our squad though for me doesn't rest solely with Lambert. The majority of the blame rests with Lerner. You pretty much in football reap what you sow. In the main the more you are willing to pay players in wages the better standard of player you will attract. There will of course always be exceptions to this but those clubs with the biggest wages bills, providing they have a good manager, will be the clubs that are the most successful.

With the above in mind then for me Lambert hasn't been given a chance to build a squad capable of consistently playing good football and achieving decent results. The quality of the players he has been able to bring in simply aren't of a high enough standard. The reason for this is that we seem no longer willing to pay the level of wages that quality players will want.

I am really frustrated by what we are serving up currently and do believe that our points total isn't a reflection of our performances and that we have more points than we deserve. With that in mind I do genuinely fear that if performances don't improve dramatically then we will find ourselves in the mire again this season.

Lambert needs some major backing from Lerner. The squad needs rebuilding for me as despite the players never giving less than 100% the quality isn't good enough. You could have Lambert or Mourinho with Guardiola as his assistant in charge but without backing then the squad will never improve from where it is now and the performances will continue to reflect the overall quality of that squad.

Couldnt have said it better.

Agree, exactly how I see it.

[drat01]

 

The Spurs thing is interesting. Surely if Lambert is as good as many are saying then his name would be in the frame for that job?

 

I think you're confusing 'I don't want Lambert sacked' with 'Lambert is amazing'.

 

Carry on creating strawmen to argue against though

 

- Strawman - got to love a bit of abuse

[StefanAVFC]

Abuse? Come off it.

 

You said 'if Lambert is as good as many are saying' when nobody is saying that. And if people are, then its definitely not 'many'. People are saying he shouldn't be sacked. That's the very definition of a strawman. Creating a scenario and arguing against the scenario you've created,

Edited December 16, 2013 by StefanAVFC

[drat01]

Abuse? Come off it.

 

You said 'if Lambert is as good as many are saying' when nobody is saying that. And if people are, then its definitely not 'many'. People are saying he shouldn't be sacked. That's the very definition of a strawman. Creating a scenario and arguing against the scenario you've created,

Hey I don't make up the rules of the forum.

 

My comment was a fair one and obviously along with many things you do not like it as it seems to question the ability and the standing of Lambert. If PL is this manager that is worthy of so much praise etc and is being held back merely by factors like Lerner etc, then surely jobs like the Spurs one would be ideal for him (and them)? You cannot have it both ways, I keep getting told how he is this and that - best of his generation etc, held back by Lerner, - so if he is that good then surely a club like Spurs who can offer so much more and are certainly ahead of us would want him, especially as he would not cost a great deal and comes with a knowledge of the premier league etc

 

But is the reality that others in the game can also see that Lambert is not doing well and is not all that many thought based on the little bit of success he had at Norwich etc?

 

Under Lerner we have seen with various players that all have their price and if they are good then the big teams come sniffing. Why does this not apply to PL?

 

Genuinely intrigued at why people are not worried that he will be "poached"

[Keyblade]

The Spurs thing is interesting. Surely if Lambert is as good as many are saying then his name would be in the frame for that job?

I think you're confusing 'I don't want Lambert sacked' with 'Lambert is amazing'.

Carry on creating strawmen to argue against though

- Strawman - got to love a bit of abuse

How is pointing out the type of argument you are using abuse? You misrepresent people's arguments and then proceed to taking them down. That's what a straw man argument is. Nobody is saying Lambert is amazing, sorry.

[drat01]

 

 

 

The Spurs thing is interesting. Surely if Lambert is as good as many are saying then his name would be in the frame for that job?

I think you're confusing 'I don't want Lambert sacked' with 'Lambert is amazing'.

Carry on creating strawmen to argue against though

- Strawman - got to love a bit of abuse

How is pointing out the type of argument you are using abuse? You misrepresent people's arguments and then proceed to taking them down. That's what a straw man argument is. Nobody is saying Lambert is amazing, sorry.

 

thanks for the like at first (quick edit was it? - thank you VT app for notifying me) - any chance of not concentrating on the poster and more on the points being raised? - cheers

[GENTLEMAN]

I think we all need to remember we are still at the early stages of a long term project. I imagine Lambert would have anticipated this season was going to be "difficult".

Edited December 16, 2013 by GENTLEMAN

[Guest]

Simple.

Back him, give him the chance to bring in 3/4 ready made players, I guarantee we will shoot up the table and play better football.

But before we slaughter him, we need the chairman to show faith and let him spend more than the 2.5m per player he has had.

And let's face it, if it wasn't for the wage bill needing reduced on instruction from Lerner, he wouldn't have to split 40m over 16 players. It is a budget rebuild for gods sake.

[Morpheus]

 

No we're in the Lambert thread and everything concerning Lambert is open to discussion and that includes home and away form of the team.

 

As pointed out to you in my previous post you are guilty of 'cherry picking' and i've quoted you examples of that and will continue to do so whenever you do it which is on a regular basis.

 

You seem to have forgotten how this discussion originally started. In case you've forgotten, here's a reminder:

 

- Somebody questioned why our home form is so bad

- You suggested that this was due to "crap purchases and a manager that can't get the best out of them"

- I countered this and asked why if that was the case do we have such a good away record by comparison

- You then gave the Fulham game as an example to counter this and I in turn replied to that by pointing out the Arsenal, Norwich and Southampton games

 

This particular conversation wasn't about home form. It was about away form - that's why the home form didn't get mentioned.

 

I haven't cherry-picked.

 

You have cherry picked concerning stats and then complained about other people doing it which is consistent in the way that you post and home form was mentioned in the stat quoted which was having the lowest tally at home through all four divisions.

 

I see you still haven't produced any evidence of posters condemning Lambert to failure no matter what he does and i see you have editied that out of my post. I wonder why that is? 

[StefanAVFC]

So many holes in that post, I don't know where to begin but I'll try.

 

1) Accusing you of creating a strawman is abuse? Right.

 

2) It clearly isn't a fair comment though. You state 'Surely if Lambert is as good as many are saying', yet if you look through the thread, there are maybe one or two categorically stating that he is doing a 'good job'. Most are saying that they don't want him sacked. Therein lies the strawman. To add to that, your post was clearly made to create an argument with those who still support Lambert with the bitingly antagonistic tone.

 

3) One poster called Lambert 'potentially the best of his generation' right when he was appointed, so if you're using a single comment made by single poster over a year ago then it appears you're clutching at straws.

 

4) Again with the black and white thinking. The limited funding by Lerner is by no means the defining factor of Lambert's reign but it is a contributing factor. Nobody is using it as an excuse, but it has an effect on the job that Lambert can do. To completely dismiss that shows a fundamental lack of understanding.

 

5) And this is the most important one for me. How can one define whether a manager is doing an 'good' or a 'bad' job? It isn't a yes/no question so it simply can't have a yes/no answer. There are numerous factors to look at and even then it's no clearer IMO. I'm going to state my opinion of him but this is no means a reflection on what anybody else thinks. Lambert, like any human, has his strengths and weaknesses. He seems to be able to motivate his players, with them coming back from losing positions on multiple occasions (most points from losing positions in the league AFAIK), is able to make the big calls while drowning out others and shows some tactical nous at times. However, and this is where he frustrates me most, he undermines his own tactical ability by making (or not making on occasion) decisions that are seemingly obvious to the everyday football fan. I'm as bad as any other fan; I think I know best with regards to tactics, but I probably don't. Our home form is absolutely diabolical and I'm not sure I can ever forgive him for Bradford. However, the run we went on last season went some way to helping with that disappointment.

 

On the flip side, our away form has been excellent and one bad result at Fulham can't dismiss that (top 5 in the league AFAIK) and could be even better as I thought we edged the games at WHU/Hull, but in truth neither team deserved to win either game. And you can't really argue with the points progress, but I'm sure this will be countered with 'lowered ambition etc'. Playing style is neither here nor there right now. People moaned about the defence last season and we played far too open at times. Now we've closed up and results are better but playing style is worse and the same people are complaining again. And before the 'why can't he shore up the defence AND keep the attack clicking', it clearly isn't as simple as that.

 

Players he's bought. The players who looked great last season haven't suddenly become terrible. The amount of players he brought in, there was no way he was going to have a 100% hit rate but I think for what he's had to spend he's done well.

 

All in all with Lambert, he's doing an 'okay' job. Certainly not groundbreaking, but there is no way in hell he should be sacked. People who continue to use last season to beat him with clearly don't understand what job he actually did.

 

In conclusion, I have 2 points.

 

1) In football, things are rarely black or white. There are many factors. Your OP displayed a simplistic view combined with a strawman argument.

2) Just because one doesn't scream 'Lambert is crap' on this forum doesn't mean that they have reservations/criticisms of him. For me, I just get worn down reading the same negativities and circular discussions that I don't wish to provide anything new because there's a perception that I think Lambert can't do any wrong which couldn't be further from the truth.

[Morpheus]

From a Spurs website.....

 

Chiriches - bit early to tell, and to be fair he's missed all their worst drubbings

Paulinho - technically limited midfield workhorse of the kind Brazil have feted since 1994 ("Brazilian 'water carriers' from Dunga onwards" would be a good feature for one of the writers on tactics). Suspect he might look ok if his only job were to close down opposing players and quickly give the ball to someone with an iota of attacking ability when he receives it. Unfortunately, at Tottenham he has no teammate who meets that description and instead subjects the paying public to his own hapless attempts to be a playmaker

Capoue - another midfield plodder. Looks slightly drunk when running with the ball

Chadli - just bizarre that he is playing for a Premier League team with theoretical top 4 ambitions. Lacks pace, passing ability, skill... any attribute that might enable him to prise open a defence

Holtby - Little bit more craft than Chadli, but compare him to the number 10/winger type players at the clubs Spurs are supposedly competing with eg Hazard, Cazorla, David Silva... He is nowhere near. What's the point of having dross like this filling squad places? Just get a smaller number of better players, like Arsenal

Soldado - knocking on 30 million euros for a striker already in his late 20s who seems to have nothing to set him apart from players of the level of Gary Hooper or Shane Long. Suspect he will prove the worst buy of a very bad bunch

Eriksen - Might turn out ok, but utter madness to expect a 21 year old in a new country moving from a much weaker league to be sole creative outlet for a team aiming for the top 4

Lamela - As above. Not such a weak league, but he just seems such a tragic figure destined not to fit in England. I'd wager he'll be back in Italy by the start of next season.

 

Not just Lambert who can't pick up these budding Roy Keanes that are apparently out there waiting to be spotted

 

At least we didn't waste £100m + and the same again  in wages

 

Capoue - looks slightly drunk when running.....classic line! very funny

We'll at least they're not trying to excuse defeat by the opposing team earning more.

[vandaq]

Anyone else get the feeling that some people love it here when we are doing bad?

 

"Convince me" " Please explain how he did such a good job?" "Why is he so inept?" "He is ruining this great club"

 

I get the frustration, but you guys are just as bad as the blind believers. Obviously most people want us to do good but making drastic decisions can have some serious outcomes. It can either help or end in tears. We are at a bad state, unlike Spurs we don`t have that many players to fall back on that can carry us if shit hits the fan