TrentVilla Posted December 28, 2012 Moderator Share Posted December 28, 2012 This thread is like groundhog day. Yes we less points than last season, yes we've conceded more goals and scored less goals. I think we've established that now. I think we've also established that we've not played the same fixtures so no exact comparison from one season to the next can be drawn, or not in order to draw a definitive conclusion on anything. It is bloody obvious that McLeish had a ok first half of the season before a horrible second half, it is perfectly possible that Lambert will do the reverse. It is simple bloody fact that when McLeish took the job he inherited a far stronger squad than Lambert inherited this summer. So quite why anyone is surprised that Lambert has a worse record than McLeish is actually beyond me. Both McLeish and Lambert both spent in the region of £17m each, yet McLeish did so building on a far stronger base. Lambert had to spread his money far thinner in order to cover the holes in the squad which came from players being released. So in short, yes in a rather meaningless comparison based on two halves of a season McLeish had a better record than Lambert. But so bloody what? What is this supposed to prove exactly? That McLeish is a better manager than Lambert? That we would be better off with McLeish in charge than Lambert? That we are some how worse off as a club as a result of the change of manager in the summer? If you think yes to any of the above then, with the upmost respect I personally think you wrong, very very very wrong. It is absolutely possible to think a club is progressing even if the points total, goals total or whatever stat you want to look at is worse than in a previous season. That is personally where I stand. I think we were going backwards from the day McLeish turned up and started signing utter crap like Hutton, N'Zogbia and Jenas. I think we were getting worse from his first game to his last and we would have got even worse this season had he been allowed to continue to build a team in his image (shudder). But as I said previously this comparison is just utterly daft, going around in circles and personally speaking, boring the **** arse of me! So how about we move the **** on? PLEASE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 With logic like that you probably shouldn't be going anywhere near rocket science. Care to share what's wrong with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Think about it though for the first half of the season we had an in form Bent and an in form Gabby. Who were bound to score goals. If a shit negative manager can get them scoring shouldn't lambert be able to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBM Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 giving AM anymore money would of been a waste, PL seems to know aready who he wants and how they will improve the team the only thing i disagree with is how he has villianised bent when he should be playing along side benteke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 What is this supposed to prove exactly? That McLeish is a better manager than Lambert? That we would be better off with McLeish in charge than Lambert? That we are some how worse off as a club as a result of the change of manager in the summer? I don't think many would answer yes to those questions. I think most of the comparisons come around because of the shit anyone who expresses any sort of worry, concern or unhappiness with this season are met with. You can't question anything or be worried about anything without being met with the same shit. Showing the lack of actual improvement is just a way to justify why some aren't happy or are concerned. It doesn't mean we would say yes to any of the questions you asked but it does mean some expected more than what's happened so far and are concerned with what the outcome of this season might be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted December 28, 2012 Moderator Share Posted December 28, 2012 You can't question anything or be worried about anything without being met with the same shit. Showing the lack of actual improvement is just a way to justify why some aren't happy or are concerned. It doesn't mean we would say yes to any of the questions you asked but it does mean some expected more than what's happened so far and are concerned with what the outcome of this season might be. Obviously you can question things or be worried about things but when you do other people are obviously going to disagree with you, that is football and the whole point of sites like this. I don't think anyone thinks Lambert is beyond criticism, I certainly don't, I think he has got a fair few things wrong both in the last two games and over the course of half the season but then which manager doesn't make mistakes? I still think that we are improving as the season goes on, I still think we are better off as it stands today than we were on the same day last year and despite the last two results I think we are progressing or moving forward or whatever you want to call it. Did I expect more? Yes actually I did, doesn't mean I was right to do so. One thing is for certain though, or at least it is in my mind we are better off with Lambert than with McLeish. I would rather this thread was talking about the here and now and Lambert than shit from the past in personal feuds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Obviously you can question things or be worried about things but when you do other people are obviously going to disagree with you, that is football and the whole point of sites like this. I don't think anyone thinks Lambert is beyond criticism, I certainly don't, I think he has got a fair few things wrong both in the last two games and over the course of half the season but then which manager doesn't make mistakes? I still think that we are improving as the season goes on, I still think we are better off as it stands today than we were on the same day last year and despite the last two results I think we are progressing or moving forward or whatever you want to call it. Did I expect more? Yes actually I did, doesn't mean I was right to do so. One thing is for certain though, or at least it is in my mind we are better off with Lambert than with McLeish. I would rather this thread was talking about the here and now and Lambert than shit from the past in personal feuds. I've got no issue with people disagreeing with me. I'd find this site boring if they didn't. But if someone is telling me I'm wrong because of obvious improvement then of course I'm going to try and counter that with actual facts and statistics. I actually do think we will be better off in the future under lambert than Mcleish but that doesn't mean I believe there's been big improvements so far or that I'm not worried about the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 I think we all expected better from Lambert, an initial bounce at least even if you don't think he's the answer long term. Anyone saying they saw the first half of the season being this bad is probably lying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Lions_Roar Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 This thread is like groundhog day. Yes we less points than last season, yes we've conceded more goals and scored less goals. I think we've established that now. I think we've also established that we've not played the same fixtures so no exact comparison from one season to the next can be drawn, or not in order to draw a definitive conclusion on anything. It is bloody obvious that McLeish had a ok first half of the season before a horrible second half, it is perfectly possible that Lambert will do the reverse. It is simple bloody fact that when McLeish took the job he inherited a far stronger squad than Lambert inherited this summer. So quite why anyone is surprised that Lambert has a worse record than McLeish is actually beyond me. Both McLeish and Lambert both spent in the region of £17m each, yet McLeish did so building on a far stronger base. Lambert had to spread his money far thinner in order to cover the holes in the squad which came from players being released. So in short, yes in a rather meaningless comparison based on two halves of a season McLeish had a better record than Lambert. But so bloody what? What is this supposed to prove exactly? That McLeish is a better manager than Lambert? That we would be better off with McLeish in charge than Lambert? That we are some how worse off as a club as a result of the change of manager in the summer? If you think yes to any of the above then, with the upmost respect I personally think you wrong, very very very wrong. It is absolutely possible to think a club is progressing even if the points total, goals total or whatever stat you want to look at is worse than in a previous season. That is personally where I stand. I think we were going backwards from the day McLeish turned up and started signing utter crap like Hutton, N'Zogbia and Jenas. I think we were getting worse from his first game to his last and we would have got even worse this season had he been allowed to continue to build a team in his image (shudder). But as I said previously this comparison is just utterly daft, going around in circles and personally speaking, boring the **** arse of me! So how about we move the **** on? PLEASE. Finally! Post of the year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Finally! Post of the year! So if people disagree about improvement or are told they're wrong when they question or express unhappiness what would you like them to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Comparing the first 19 games of this season with last is perfectly valid. It's called like for like comparison or half year report. It shows we've gone backwards but this is not necessarily all Lamberts fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Lions_Roar Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 So if people disagree about improvement or are told they're wrong when they question or express unhappiness what would you like them to do? Agree to disagree! Quite frankly its boring and going round in circles. Like I've said before surely the only comparison can be made at the end of the season. AM took a side that finished 9th and took them to 16th. PL has so far taken a side that finished 16th and currently sit 16th in the table! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisVillan Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 So if people disagree about improvement or are told they're wrong when they question or express unhappiness what would you like them to do? I'd like them to take part in coherent debates, applying relevant arguments and trying to behave like adults so as not to turn this site into a boring shit-tip. What would you like them to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted December 28, 2012 Moderator Share Posted December 28, 2012 I've got no issue with people disagreeing with me. I'd find this site boring if they didn't. I know you haven't mate and I'm not having a go at you or any other individual, that is why I'm posting just as another poster not a mod. It is good when people disagree and debate things. It isn't good though when it goes around around in circles to the point of spoiling a thread which is where I think this is getting to. But if someone is telling me I'm wrong because of obvious improvement then of course I'm going to try and counter that with actual facts and statistics. Sure you are, but it doesn't mean they are right Only kidding, the point is I just wish when views are so opposing that they are never going to come together people would just move on. I actually do think we will be better off in the future under lambert than Mcleish but that doesn't mean I believe there's been big improvements so far or that I'm not worried about the future. On this we are in total agreement, I'd argue with anyone who says there have big improvements but then I'd also argue with any who says there haven't been any or that there aren't signs of ones potentially coming in the future as a result of changes implemented and the direction being taken. If people (again not specifically you) moved past the little niggles then I think the vast majority of us would all probably agree on far more than we disagree on which would make this thread a far more interesting read. It would also enable us to really discuss the actual issues or plus points rather than continue in this circular argument that has been this thread for the last however many pages. As I say, I'm not having a go at you or any individual poster. I'm just trying to move this on a little and make it a more enjoyable thread for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 I'd like them to take part in coherent debates, applying relevant arguments and trying to behave like adults so as not to turn this site into a boring shit-tip. What would you like them to do? I agree to some extent. However I think looking at statistics from last season is relevant when people tell you your wrong for questioning improvements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 It's fair enough Trent. I'll lay off the comparisons for now then. It would also enable us to really discuss the actual issues or plus points rather than continue in this circular argument that has been this thread for the last however many pages. I think this would be better but it's difficult to do this with some posters who seem to just argue that we've improved and anyone who can't see this are doom mongering negative typical moaning fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 I think we all expected better from Lambert, an initial bounce at least even if you don't think he's the answer long term. Anyone saying they saw the first half of the season being this bad is probably lying. Search my posts, I said pre-season we would be bottom 3 at Christmas improving in the second half of the season to finish lower mid table. So for me, we're doing ok, above what I expected really. frankly anyone who thought Lambert could walk in to this mess and sort it out fast didnt quite understand how deep the mess was that he inherited. I think if you search my posts you will also find I have said that once or twice, too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacbuddies Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 (edited) This thread is like groundhog day. Yes we less points than last season, yes we've conceded more goals and scored less goals. I think we've established that now. I think we've also established that we've not played the same fixtures so no exact comparison from one season to the next can be drawn, or not in order to draw a definitive conclusion on anything. It is bloody obvious that McLeish had a ok first half of the season before a horrible second half, it is perfectly possible that Lambert will do the reverse. It is simple bloody fact that when McLeish took the job he inherited a far stronger squad than Lambert inherited this summer. So quite why anyone is surprised that Lambert has a worse record than McLeish is actually beyond me. Both McLeish and Lambert both spent in the region of £17m each, yet McLeish did so building on a far stronger base. Lambert had to spread his money far thinner in order to cover the holes in the squad which came from players being released. So in short, yes in a rather meaningless comparison based on two halves of a season McLeish had a better record than Lambert. But so bloody what? What is this supposed to prove exactly? That McLeish is a better manager than Lambert? That we would be better off with McLeish in charge than Lambert? That we are some how worse off as a club as a result of the change of manager in the summer? If you think yes to any of the above then, with the upmost respect I personally think you wrong, very very very wrong. It is absolutely possible to think a club is progressing even if the points total, goals total or whatever stat you want to look at is worse than in a previous season. That is personally where I stand. I think we were going backwards from the day McLeish turned up and started signing utter crap like Hutton, N'Zogbia and Jenas. I think we were getting worse from his first game to his last and we would have got even worse this season had he been allowed to continue to build a team in his image (shudder). But as I said previously this comparison is just utterly daft, going around in circles and personally speaking, boring the **** arse of me! So how about we move the **** on? PLEASE. Just a quick couple of questions. 1. How was the squad that McLeish inherited far stronger than the one Lambert inherited? 2. What significantly good players were missing from McLeish's squad when Lambert took over? Edited December 28, 2012 by pacbuddies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Comparing the first 19 games of this season with last is perfectly valid. It's called like for like comparison or half year report. It shows we've gone backwards but this is not necessarily all Lamberts fault. Why dont you compare the first ten games of this season to the second ten, and use that to measure whether or not there has been improvement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Fair enough PB, you must be in the minority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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