Manager Paul Lambert

[praisedmambo]

 

 

 

 

 

Out of interest Morpheus, do you still think Lambert got it wrong signing Benteke instead of Berbatov?

Out of interest do you still think Warnock was a good signing?

 

 

I will take that as a no.

 

You were wrong about Benteke and you seemingly were wrong about Lambert. You were also wrong when you said we would be better off sacking Lambert and getting Redknapp or when you were envious of Jol's signings for Fulham who now have a squad packed with high paid players past their best on the decline.

 

There is no harm in being wrong, I'm happy to admit I was wrong about Warnock being a good signing although I did say at the time we had paid far too much for him.

 

The key is to know when you are wrong and hold your hands up, you don't seem able to do this. You tried to wriggle off the hook with Benteke, back tracking on what you'd said and claiming you weren't wrong. Now you appear to be doing the same.

 

You got it wrong, Lambert got his approach right, he got his signings right (not everyone but in terms of his policy) with the budget he had to work with (which I hope you have finally accepted he had a budget) and despite some horrible results this season he kept us up which I think ultimately alongside reducing wages was his remit from the chairman this season.

 

Is he our best ever manager? No clearly not but then I'm not sure I've seen anyone claim he is. What I do see are some people who had a belief in him this season feeling vindicated for doing so, I see others who had some doubts but held back expressing great relief that they did and I see you, who wanted him sacked desperately trying to avoid admitting that you probably got this one wrong as well.

 

Even with the question mark i didn't think your question on the comparison between Benteke and Berbatov was rhetorical rather that you were having a go so to speak and my reply was meant in jest. No matter.

 

To answer your question directly, Benteke was twice the signing that Berbatov was for obvious reasons even though Berbatov has been arguably Fulham's best player this season. My point of view on Berbatov was for him to be played in behind Bent which i felt would have been effective. We'll never know how effective that would have been since we didn't sign Berbatov and Lambert has alienated Bent for reasons yet unknown.

 

You have yet again made the accusation that i tried to 'wriggle off the hook' concerning Benteke. I have previously received a warning from on site moderation concerning going around in circles in debate but since you have seen cause to broach the subject again i hope i will be allowed to retort.

 

I fully admitted to being wrong about Benteke and was rightly slaughtered for that. I stated that i made my call on Benteke due to his form at the start of the season which was universally described as poor by pundits and posters and I remember you having a pop at that then and i assume you are referring to the same now so let revisit that.

 

One simple question. On what, or how do you judge a player. Do you judge him on every day matters such as getting out of bed in the morning or do you judge him on form, i.e how he is playing. I made my judgement on how he was playing, you know, form on the pitch. I hope that is abundantly clear for you now or do you need further explanation that only a child would understand? As it turned out, Benteke's form improved way beyond the player that we seen at the start of the season and he proved that i and others who had criticised him were talking through our own arses. He is a super player and i'm glad we have him. Without him we would have been relegated.

 

Lambert v Redknapp.

 

Yep with high-sight i was wrong about that too. You will note however that when i called for Lambert's head to be replaced by Redknapp we were in free fall and Redknapp had a history of getting teams out of trouble with playing good football. Its therefore impossible to prove either way that even under the same constraints Redknapp wouldn't have pushed us on in the same way Lambert has. You can quote QPR and i would retort with Spurs and on it would go.

 

Lambert.

 

I have noted quotes like 'best manager we have had in years' and 'in Lambert we trust' and top three or four managers in the Premiership.' I have not seen 'best ever manager.'

 

You have stated 'you have got it wrong, Lambert got his approach right.' What is this based on? The fact that he has presided over our worst start ever to a Premier League season which has culminated in being threatened with relegation right up until the 37th game of the season and then losing to a team in a cup competition from what league and not being able to keep a clean sheet for how many games now?

 

You will find that i along with one or two other posters voiced our concerns at Lambert's appointment at the start of the season and his subsequent transfer policy and we have been proven right due to the subsequent relegation dog fight we've been in this season. I noted several posts from you during the season which implied we were going down yet you criticise me for getting my concerns at the start of the season correct.

 

In my view that make you the worst type of hypocrite there is. 

 

So you're still ignoring the context of the state we were in last summer? Oh. Ok. You're going to keep doing it aren't you. 

 

And Benteke is 10x the signing Berbatov is, by the way, not 2x. 

 

The only one who is ignoring anything here is you as i've already answered your question and your rebuttal of 10x instead of 2x is childish.

 

No it isn't. 

[Morpheus]

 

 

 

 

Out of interest Morpheus, do you still think Lambert got it wrong signing Benteke instead of Berbatov?

Out of interest do you still think Warnock was a good signing?

 

 

I will take that as a no.

 

You were wrong about Benteke and you seemingly were wrong about Lambert. You were also wrong when you said we would be better off sacking Lambert and getting Redknapp or when you were envious of Jol's signings for Fulham who now have a squad packed with high paid players past their best on the decline.

 

There is no harm in being wrong, I'm happy to admit I was wrong about Warnock being a good signing although I did say at the time we had paid far too much for him.

 

The key is to know when you are wrong and hold your hands up, you don't seem able to do this. You tried to wriggle off the hook with Benteke, back tracking on what you'd said and claiming you weren't wrong. Now you appear to be doing the same.

 

You got it wrong, Lambert got his approach right, he got his signings right (not everyone but in terms of his policy) with the budget he had to work with (which I hope you have finally accepted he had a budget) and despite some horrible results this season he kept us up which I think ultimately alongside reducing wages was his remit from the chairman this season.

 

Is he our best ever manager? No clearly not but then I'm not sure I've seen anyone claim he is. What I do see are some people who had a belief in him this season feeling vindicated for doing so, I see others who had some doubts but held back expressing great relief that they did and I see you, who wanted him sacked desperately trying to avoid admitting that you probably got this one wrong as well.

 

Even with the question mark i didn't think your question on the comparison between Benteke and Berbatov was rhetorical rather that you were having a go so to speak and my reply was meant in jest. No matter.

 

To answer your question directly, Benteke has been twice the signing that Berbatov could have ever been for obvious reasons even though Berbatov has been arguably Fulham's best player this season. My point of view on Berbatov was for him to be played in behind Bent which i felt would have been effective. We'll never know how effective that would have been since we didn't sign Berbatov and Lambert has alienated Bent for reasons yet unknown.

 

You have yet again made the accusation that i tried to 'wriggle off the hook' concerning Benteke. I have previously received a warning from on site moderation concerning going around in circles in debate but since you have seen cause to broach the subject again i hope i will be allowed to retort.

 

I fully admitted to being wrong about Benteke and was rightly slaughtered for that. I stated that i made my call on Benteke due to his form at the start of the season which was universally described as poor by pundits and posters alike and I remember you having a pop at that then and i assume you are referring to the same now so let revisit that.

 

One simple question. On what, or how do you judge a player. Do you judge him on every day matters such as getting out of bed in the morning or do you judge him on form, i.e how he is playing. I made my judgement on how he was playing, you know, form on the pitch. I hope that is abundantly clear for you now or do you need further explanation that only a child would understand? As it turned out, Benteke's form improved way beyond the player that we seen at the start of the season and he proved that i and others who had criticised him were talking through our own arses. He is a super player and i'm glad we have him. Without him we would have been relegated.

 

Lambert v Redknapp.

 

Yep with high-sight i was wrong about that too. You will note however that when i called for Lambert's head to be replaced by Redknapp we were in free fall and Redknapp had a history of getting teams out of trouble with playing good football. Its therefore impossible to prove either way that even under the same constraints Redknapp wouldn't have pushed us on in the same way Lambert has. You can quote QPR and i would retort with Spurs and on it would go.

 

Lambert.

 

I have noted quotes like 'best manager we have had in years' and 'in Lambert we trust' and top three or four managers in the Premiership.' I have not seen 'best ever manager.'

 

You have stated 'you have got it wrong, Lambert got his approach right.' What is this based on? The fact that he has presided over our worst start ever to a Premier League season which has culminated in being threatened with relegation right up until the 37th game of the season and then losing to a team in a cup competition from what league and not being able to keep a clean sheet for how many games now?

 

You will find that i along with one or two other posters voiced our concerns at Lambert's appointment at the start of the season and his subsequent transfer policy and we have been proven right due to the subsequent relegation dog fight we've been in this season. I noted several posts from you during the season which implied we were going down yet you criticise me for getting my concerns at the start of the season correct.

 

In my view that make you the worst type of hypocrite there is. 

 

 

You just don't get it so I will withdraw from the debate I think.

 

As for your accusation I'm a hypocrite you couldn't be further from the truth. I actually didn't want Lambert or at least he wasn't my preferred choice but I thought I'd wait and see how he performed in very difficult circumstance, circumstances you seem completely incapable of taking into account.

 

I opted to do that rather than calling for his head a few months into the season because I could see the mess he inherited, the lack of resources he was given to deal with it and I could at least see what he was trying to do even if I didn't always agree with it or every decision he made.

 

You can stick your head in the sand all you want but he has worked with very small resources considering the job at hand regardless of how much he spent in the summer.

 

At times this season I thought we were heading down in January certainly. I wasn't calling for his head though because I've never blamed him for the position we found ourselves in, I blame a mixture of Lerner and the previous 3 managers for that. Lambert is just the guy unlucky enough and brave enough to pick up the pieces and try and make brave decisions that are for the best of the club even at great potential risk to the club and his own hard earned reputation, few managers would have the balls.

 

So no, no hypocrisy here.

 

What debate exactly?

 

You accused me of trying to wriggle of the hook by back tracking on what i had said concerning Benteke. I did no such thing and have fully admitted i was wrong about him on many occasions and indeed most recently again in this thread several pages back.

 

You have also claimed that i was wrong about Lambert and implied that i refused to admit it. Being proven wrong about Lambert is going to take a lot more than one season fraught with relegation worries and guiding us to safety with just one game left.

 

I have already stated in a recent post that if we are comfortably in mid table next season i would start to support the manager more but i will not do it blindly on the basis that not relegating our club is some sort of achievement.

[VILLAMARV]

people seem to be getting a bit wound up over a bit of banter, its not like trent wrapped morpheus's clothes round a pigs head is it? ;P 

but back to Lambert - Having inherited the squad he did, a battle against relegation was pretty obviously what we could hope for this season barring some sort of miracle. We ARE AVFC and therefore we should finish top 10 (and we should expect to). The reality was we had consistently sold our best players and spent the money on getting rid of and hiring new managers instead of investing all of it on the pitch.

McCleish did a similar job with more or less the same players, the differences for me this season are that we actually try to kick the ball in the net now and the new players that have adapted to their moves quickly have added some quality. any team that for a myriad of reasons basically changes their ENTIRE back 5 from the previous year is going to let in goals. 

I'm glad he kept us up as i think it's going to be a really interesting summer with regards to who comes and goes and this will be the thing to judge him on next year.

[HeyAnty]

people seem to be getting a bit wound up over a bit of banter, its not like trent wrapped morpheus's clothes round a pigs head is it? ;P

but back to Lambert - Having inherited the squad he did, a battle against relegation was pretty obviously what we could hope for this season barring some sort of miracle. We ARE AVFC and therefore we should finish top 10 (and we should expect to). The reality was we had consistently sold our best players and spent the money on getting rid of and hiring new managers instead of investing all of it on the pitch.

McCleish did a similar job with more or less the same players, the differences for me this season are that we actually try to kick the ball in the net now and the new players that have adapted to their moves quickly have added some quality. any team that for a myriad of reasons basically changes their ENTIRE back 5 from the previous year is going to let in goals.

I'm glad he kept us up as i think it's going to be a really interesting summer with regards to who comes and goes and this will be the thing to judge him on next year.

Dont get your post. You say mcleish done the same job with more or less same players then say the entire back 5 was changed not to mention the midfield.

We cant compare last years and this years team. This years team had a plan for the future

[Morpheus]

people seem to be getting a bit wound up over a bit of banter, its not like trent wrapped morpheus's clothes round a pigs head is it? ;P 

I'm glad he kept us up as i think it's going to be a really interesting summer with regards to who comes and goes and this will be the thing to judge him on next year.

Pretty much this.

[DamsonwoodVillan]

Before we appointed McLeish it was my belief that any manager should be given two seasons before a cast iron judgement could be made on them, and I certainly think Lambert is worthy of this more than any other Villa manager in recent memory.

 

I'll probably never get over the disappointment of Bradford and what might have been against Swansea in a final, but boy we won some really big games through April and early May to scrape out of it.

 

Lambert will pretty much have his very own starting 11 next season, likely exception of Gabby, and next season should be the start of any real conclusive assessment. I'm delighted we've stayed up and I'm pleased that we're on a firmer footing financially. Other than that I hope next season is a HUGE improvement on this one.

[vandaq]

I just really hope he brings up some players this window and not like two unknown players( I am fine with that but we need more rotation in the squad) I feel we are way to reliant on certain players and we need to have more choices on the pitch. I hope he really gets some solid players in the back, we need to change the whole no clean sheet thing quick next season.

[praisedmambo]

 

people seem to be getting a bit wound up over a bit of banter, its not like trent wrapped morpheus's clothes round a pigs head is it? ;P 

I'm glad he kept us up as i think it's going to be a really interesting summer with regards to who comes and goes and this will be the thing to judge him on next year.

Pretty much this.

 

I disagree. I say we judge him on how well we're doing, not who comes and goes. 

[Morpheus]

The highlighted part of the post was actually meant to judge Lambert next year on everything but i suppose i should have just stated that.

[danceoftheshamen]

Well personally i think he did an incredible job to keep us up..considering the huge changes to the team & the amount of youngsters coming through but most of all considering we were effectively dead & buried by the time we lost to Wigan & Newcastle... A remarkable piece of management to keep us up & i am quite hopeful that we will have a better season next time out.

[TrentVilla]

I'm very aware like you and everyone else that he had a difficult job to do here within the circumstances he was given. No-one is disputing that. However is it such an uncommon occurrence for a manager to be sacked and the new manager having to sort out existing problems at the club? If you agree that its not such an uncommon occurrence then you must judge at what level those problems were for the new manager to manage.

 

 

In my opinion those problems where not at a level that would justify the season we have just experienced and could have been avoided with better preparation by the manager.  

 

 

Is it uncommon for a manager to inherit a club in need of some sorting out? No.

 

Is it uncommon for a manager to inherit a club which has gone through multiple managers in a short space of time who have made some woeful signings with the little more available. A club which has consistently sold its best players and been left with a squad full of inexperienced kids, average players on huge unsustainable wages, more holes than the West Yorkshire police's collective memory and several players with at best questionable attitudes.

 

It isn't common to inherit a club with all of these things and a chairman who only provides around £17m to sign around 8 players while at the same time giving a brief of significantly reducing the wage bill while turning around a team that has struggled against relegation the previous 2 years.

 

Few manager do a Moyes and go into a club on a high and few take over a club in quite such a mess as we were in.

 

So yes, I agree with your basic point and I agree you need to then judge a manager on his performance in respect of what he inherited. Oddly you seem to be failing to follow the principle that you yourself are stating.

 

 

You spent much of the season banging on about players like Berbatov seemingly either completely unaware that Lambert is working under constraints that would stop him making those sort of signings. 

 

I think you are completely failing to judge Lambert against these conditions and what is more you are doing him a discredit in doing so.

 

You logic appears to be he should have signed more experienced players and therefore we would have done better. Well aside from the issue of the wages, there is little to suggest this would have been the result. Just take a look at QPR and the impact of their transfer policy both before and after the appointment of the man you wanted here not so long ago.

 

It is a short term approach which offers no guarantee other than a bigger wage bill and players that will decrease in value rather than ones which might increase.

 

Lambert not only inherited a total mess but he showed a great deal of balls in taking the approach he has to sorting it out. He could have taken a McLeish style approach signing has been crap like Jenas (something Redknapp did as well ironically) which would have been the easier option and certainly the safer option in terms of his reputation.

 

Only Lambert didn't do this, he put his hard earned reputation on the line and back his judgement to sign young and promising players with a view to improving them and improving us as a club in the medium to long term as well as the here and now. Was the season more bumpy because of this approach? Almost certainly, is the club in a damn sight better position now than the day he walked through the door? Again almost certainly I would suggest.

 

He has added some gems to our squad like Lowton, Westwood and your friend the new Heskey and a few others who might go on to be gems we will have to see. What he hasn't done is saddle us with shite like Boswinga or Jenas that managers like Redknapp would have done and which you would have welcomed.

 

You talk about the manager needing better to have prepared better, well I'd love to hear you expand on that one I really would.

 

Has this season been great? No but he has achieved what were his two primary objectives, reduce the wage bill and keep us up and not only has he done this but he has built foundations of a good young side worth far more than what it cost to assemble which should help us move forward in the next couple of years.

 

Before the season I predicted we would finish 13th, now granted I didn't expect some of the heavy defeats or the loss to Bradford but we are tonight 15th and 1 point of 13th. So I can't really judge Lambert's performance this season as being anything other than a success overall with a few blips along the way.

 

If you see it differently, fine that is up to you but I think you are judging him too quickly just as you did Benteke and you are doing so without fully taking into account both what he inherited and the potential benefits to the club in the approach he has taken.

 

Oh and just to add, you saw fit to call for Lambert to be sacked a few short months into his time here yet you say a season is too soon to judge for those who think he has done a good job. And you want to talk about hypocrisy? 

[lexicon]

I think if you waited a lot longer to pass judgement than you currently are doing; it wouldn't come back to bite you on the arse so much.

[momo]

41 points - 3 up from last season

League position 15 - 1 up from last season.

 

Progress!

Edited May 19, 2013 by momo

[CI]

A villa manager who doesn't treat the fans with disdain.

Progress

[Big_John_10]

I think if you waited a lot longer to pass judgement than you currently are doing; it wouldn't come back to bite you on the arse so much.

Says the man who in August wrote

No chance of relegation this season - stupid really

[Big_John_10]

You spent much of the season banging on about players like Berbatov seemingly either completely unaware that Lambert is working under constraints that would stop him making those sort of signings.

To be fair to Morpheus he continually used our bid for Dempsey as proof that Lambert could have signed a player on high wages whenever he mentioned this.

You logic appears to be he should have signed more experienced players and therefore we would have done better. Well aside from the issue of the wages, there is little to suggest this would have been the result. Just take a look at QPR and the impact of their transfer policy both before and after the appointment of the man you wanted here not so long ago.

It is a short term approach which offers no guarantee other than a bigger wage bill and players that will decrease in value rather than ones which might increase.

Does this apply to all experienced players or just the ones signed by QPR? Is it not possible to sign experience and have them not turn out like you describe above?

Apart from those points I agree with pretty much the rest.

We're in a better position than last year in terms of going forward and building something as a club.

[ciggiesnbeer]

A villa manager who doesn't treat the fans with disdain.

Progress

 

Alex McLeish never had a bad word to say about Villa or the fans and still doesnt. Obviously I prefer Lambert as a manager but McLeish was always respectful to us and the club.

 

Unless you meant Houllier in which case, yeah you have a point

[CI]

Yeah I meant Houllier and DOL plus MON when he kicked off about Moscow

You're right about McLeish to be fair to him

[lexicon]

 

I think if you waited a lot longer to pass judgement than you currently are doing; it wouldn't come back to bite you on the arse so much.

Says the man who in August wrote

No chance of relegation this season - stupid really

 

 

Well we didn't get relegated... so technically I was right.

[Mantis]

 

A villa manager who doesn't treat the fans with disdain.

Progress

 

Alex McLeish never had a bad word to say about Villa or the fans and still doesnt. Obviously I prefer Lambert as a manager but McLeish was always respectful to us and the club.

 

Unless you meant Houllier in which case, yeah you have a point

 

Disagree. Some of McLeish's post match comments were a disgrace. He treated this club like a **** joke.