Ghost_of_Pongo_Waring Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 You can't in all fairness say "if Sessègnon had scored his chances" and ignore the chances we had. Kozak hit the bar just after the first Sessègnon miss. Why does that not count in the game of 'what if'. Also to be accurate if Sessègnon had scored the first of his misses then the rest of the game would have been totally different anyway, from that point onwards. Whether Kozak missed chances at the other end really has nothing to do with our defensive lapses and I'm sure you know that. But, anyway, we didn't get the same sort of clear-cut chance that we gifted to West Brom and that Sessègnon squandered. That was what was so good about our fight back. We had to dig out our goals and they were both very skilfully taken. To get back to the basic point: our defence is still making rather alarming mistakes. Certainly fewer than last season, but we have been lucky in the last couple of games that we were not punished more for them. Whether Kozak had sneaked his shot under the bar really would not have made any difference to that. (But I like your optimism that, if Sessègnon had made it 3-0, it would have become a different game -yes, Benteke would have sprung into life and banged in 4. ) Yes the defence is still making mistakes but I don't think anyone has suggested that our defensive problems are solved but we have improved. As for the luck part I disagree. You may say we were lucky that Sessègnon missed, you could just as easily say they were lucky that we gifted him a chance. I doubt you'd say we were unlucky to give Sessègnon the chance, and rightly so as it was down to careless defensive play, so why should it be classed as luck when Sessègnon makes a mistake. The different game thing wasn't being optomistic Briney but just stating a fact. If he'd scored then obviously instead of the goal kick we'd have been kicking off. All the players would have been in totally different positions and every run, pass and shot would have been different. Would we have come back from three down, who knows, it's been done before. I remember, and I think you probably remember it too, when Sir Brian was manager being 4-0 ahead against Leicester with 15 minutes to go and it finished 4-4. Strange things can happen although I think you're wrong about Benteke going on to get 4, he'd have got a double hat trick at least Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raver50032 Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Jeeeeeeez - I am annoyed as most about most of our performances this year but this place is ridicilous. Do people forget where we were. Yes the football is shit at the moment and yes it is horrible to watch. However, we are in a better position than last year, our defence is so much better and at the moment our strikers are not firing. The second half of last year was mostly down to the good work of the front three. They have not played alot of games together this year and Weimann and Benteke have not been in form. If or when they hit form we will look much better. Yes we could be a lot better and sign xyz but the truth is that the transformation will take time and patience. We will go through awful periods, some players wont make it and some players will. If people are calling for a change in strategy or change in maangement at the first sign of a shit run then we have no hope. Like I said, I get so frustrated watching us pass the ball straight to the opposition time and time again. Frustrated watching us struggle to carve out half a chance. However, the fact is our results are better than last season. It's an internet forum, they all get ridiculous, even those run by greying old men who like model railways* I don't forget where we were at all - I boycotted McLeish after the Swansea game despite having a ST. It was making me angry, and so enraged was i at that game, I had a 'sensation' in my chest, so I stayed away until the day he was given the tin tack. For between four and five hundred quid, it's a lot of money for common men (with more than just football as an interest) like me to spunk up the wall each year on a season ticket, project or no project, patience or no patience. The club does well to run itself as a business these days. A successful business needs customers 'through the door' to help keep it afloat. To keep customers interested (apart from the blind loyal), they need to be entertained. A lucky win (debated before) against Citeh, does not cut it I'm afraid. Through all the bluster (not you Omariqy) we have seen over the last weeks about fixtures at the start being so difficult and that we should be grateful and happy clappy for the position we currently enjoy (to be fair, I feel comfortable about all that) - I cannot explain why we were so unable to make any headway into a winnable fixture against bottom of the league and flapping Sunderland. Even finding ourselves so cheaply 2-0 down and on our arse at the Hawthorns. After the tough start, we're suddenly some way into a run of winnable games (debatable that ANY game is winnable). Project or no project, something isn't right and it needs changing. I'm not saying the manager requires sacking, no... not at all. But he needs to change something before we do end up back down there in a scrap when the 'too hard' fixtures come round again. On the 'journey' we are on, our position is acceptable in my view and it is clear progress if we finish the season where we are now. Some entertainment and value for money would be very welcome along the way. Especially if they want me to part with 500 quid next term. *Nothing wrong with model railways. I've got one round my garden. Keeps me off the street and out of the pub**. **Nothing wrong with going down the pub. I just find it expensive for not a lot of reward anymore. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 There are some interesting points there, Pongo, although I doubt whether anyone else would appreciate it if we launched into a philosophical discussion about the nature of "luck". On reflection, maybe "luck" is the wrong word to use because it could be interpreted as dismissive and demeaning of the team's efforts. "Fortune", good and bad, is a more neutral way to describe what happens in football. We certainly had a bit of good fortune in our last two matches, whether Sessègnon was unlucky or not with his misses. Anyway, since we both seem to agree that the defence has improved but is still making mistakes, I don't think there is much difference between us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 (edited) That success as you call it is wholly based on the assumption that Lerner and Faulkner after giving Lambert 20m to spend then told him all we want Mr Lambert is that you keep us in the Premiership and it doesn't matter if we take until the penultimate game to achieve that. Now it may have happened and i can't prove otherwise but i would hazard a guess that both Chairman and Chief Executive were a tad more ambitious when you also take into consideration that there was no pressure on Lambert to purchase youthful inexperience. It was Lambert's decision and his alone how he spent his budget! Where have I said, or even intimated, that all Lambert had to achieve was staying in the Premiership. We needed to reduce wages. That has been widely reported, you surely must be aware of it. To reduce wages high earning players had to be replaced. Lambert could have replaced them with fewer, but more experienced, players or go the way he chose which was increase the squad depth by buying less experienced youth. Just in case you're still not sure of what I'm saying, Lambert had to reduce wages and keep us up. He succeded. Wages have been reduced and we were not relegated. You are also assuming that we are turning things around. What is that based on? Currently lying 10th with more points which is fair enough but when you consider our current standard of football, an inability to score goals, points total in relation to other teams around and below us and of course that minor detail that we haven't yet hit the Christmas period, then that placement could be best described as fragile and certainly not set in stone as to base permanent progress. We could of course kick on from where we are but due to the aforementioned traits we could also drop just as quickly so this much lauded stated improvement that everyone is getting so excited about is rather premature. Again, where have I said, or even intimated, that our progress this season is set in stone? We are turning things round, at the moment. Yes we are not playing as fluently as we were at the end of last season but we are a lot better defensively. We've already kept as many clean sheets as we did in the whole of last season. We're not scoring as well as the end of last season but it's not an assumption to think that having all three of our main strikers missing a number of games is going to have an effect. Saturday was the first time for eight games that Gabby, Benteke and Weimann had started together. Yet despite that we haven't collapsed but carried on grinding out points. You're assuming that the improvements fragile. It may well prove to be but it could also prove to be long term improvement. One last point if i may. This is the second time i've seen you stating that we were closer to relegation under Mcleish than Lambert. For once you haven't based a statement on assumption and thats good but i would however suggest you do a little research. Both Mcleish and Lambert secured our Premiership status with just one game to go and therefore as i have already stated i'm wondering if an amalgamation between youthful exuberance and Premiership experience wouldn't have served us better certainly in the short term to give our young players more time to develop with less pressure for the future? I don't need to do research on who got us closer to relegation. The comparison on the number of games left when we secured safety between McCleish and Lambert is meaningless. It is ridiculous logic and I'll explain why. If a team secures safety with four games to go but they lose the last four games and finish one point above the relegation zone they are closer to being relegated than a team that secures safety with three games to go but wins it's final three games and finishes nine points above the relegation zone. Using your 'logic' the team who didn't secure safety until three games was closer to being relegated. Under McLeish we finished in 16th place, two points above relegated Bolton Under Lambert we finished in 15th place, five points above relegated Wigan. Your statement, a couple of days ago, that Lambert got us closer to being relegated than McLeish was ludicrous. We were closer, both in position and points, to be relegated under McLeish. Maybe a mix of youth and experience would have been better, maybe it wouldn't. There's no way of proving either view point. To me the most important fact of all was that we came so close to being relegated for a second season in succession under a manager who not only emulated his predecessor (deemed by many as possibly the worst manager we have ever had) but actually surpassed several of all the wrong stats the previous manager left behind. When Lambert started his tenure here did you honestly think that he was going to preside over another relegation dogfight? No not many did and those who started to voice their concerns over the type of signings he was making and indeed predicting that we were going to struggle were duly ridiculed on this site, including yours truly. However those concerns were proven to be correct were they not? Now i mention the above and points in my previous post not out of gusto but in relation to the context of your post where you state 'Lambert had to keep us up and he succeeded' and 'the fact is we weren't relegated and that is the most important fact of all.' The implication being if i'm understanding you correctly is that it was an achievement by Lambert not to relegate us? If you are suggesting that was an achievement and i have seen others alluding to this as well then my previous point also stands in that it was solely Lambert's decision to revamp the squad in the way that he did and therefore he must take full responsibility for last season's debacle. Furthermore, your statement 'we'd be not as far down the road to turning things around as we are now' would imply would it not that on the basis of our current placing you think the club is being turned around. My point was and still is that due to the conditions i quoted you in my previous post any statement alluding to the club actually being turned around is premature! Lastly you have called my comments on who was closer to relegating us ridiculous. You seem to have got yourself in a little muddle over this point. Question. No matter how many or how few points you collect after securing your Premiership status can you be relegated? I think you'll have to agree that you can't so the best way to judge who was closer to getting us relegated is indeed by quoting when our Premiership status was secured. See now how, em, 'ridiculous' your scenarios are. Edited December 4, 2013 by Morpheus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 We've certainly got luckier defensively. Against Sunderland, Giaccherini missed a nailed on goal from about 3 yards out and, on a different day, Ciaran would have given away a penalty for his handball. Against West Brom, Sessègnon missed two simple, open goals that would have put Sunderland 4-0 ahead. your just making stuff up now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 But there have been games we've lost this season when we've missed shed loads of chances....Everton first half this season and Chelsea 2nd half spring to mind so I'm not bothered about the oh look how lucky we are the opposition can't shoot struggle angle. It all balances itself out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 The current conversation is asinine IMO. Our league position is a fair reflection of our form. It is not however a fair reflection of how utterly painful we are to watch. It's every bit as dreadful as it was under McLeish. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DelboyVilla Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 The current conversation is asinine IMO. Our league position is a fair reflection of our form. It is not however a fair reflection of how utterly painful we are to watch. It's every bit as dreadful as it was under McLeish. PL is McLeish with a backbone. Dour Scotish porridge football! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 We certainly played some good football at the backend of last season. Mcleish is a defensive manager. No way you can say that about Lambert playing 3 up front. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwan Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 (edited) I find it amusing that there's any comparison between PL and McLeish. Is the football dire? Yes. The difference being PL puts out a team that's trying to score but doesn't know how to whereas McLeish puts out a team that "maybe we'll get a goal if our defenders are the right place" It's about the mentality. One will improve whereas the other will always be awful. Or are we just going to put some of the fantastic goals from last season as "luck" as so seems to be the trend in this thread. Edited December 4, 2013 by Kwan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 There is absolutely no comparison between the football of this season and that of McLeish. None. Is the football not pleasing at the moment? Sure. But at no point can you compare it to the 11 behind the ball for 90 mins protecting a 1-0 deficit, with 6 defenders in the starting lineup + Heskey playing as trequartista era. Nothing but short term memory, and revisionism to be able to make such a claim. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GENTLEMAN Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Which style of football do people want us to play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Its the lack of attacking ideas that worries me, we didnt once from open play look like breaking through Sunderland, Cardiff or Spurs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Which style of football do people want us to play? One where we look remotely capable of scoring at home against the bottom team perhaps? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villan_007 Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 The current conversation is asinine IMO. Our league position is a fair reflection of our form. It is not however a fair reflection of how utterly painful we are to watch. It's every bit as dreadful as it was under McLeish. What a load of bollocks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordSepulchrave Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 It comes back down to this perception that either you are Barcelona or Stoke. I'm particularly sure we're neither. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Whilst you could argue it is a bit harsh to say our displays are exactly like those under McLeish. I don't see how you can say things like there is absolutely no comparision between the two. The inability to string a few passes together, the systematic hoofing, playing for the clean-sheet first and foremost etc. I can think of many similarities. Well at home anyway, I don't think we are much of an improvement. Obviously our away performances (bar that debacle at West Ham) are still much better then those under McLeish, so that should be made clear. Ultimately what we serve up at home though is retrograte football of the lowest order. It is just painful to watch and appalling quite frankly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villan_007 Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Whilst you could argue it is a bit harsh to say our displays are exactly like those under McLeish. I don't see how you can say things like there is absolutely no comparision between the two. The inability to string a few passes together, the systematic hoofing, playing for the clean-sheet first and foremost etc. I can think of many similarities. Well at home anyway, I don't think we are much of an improvement. Obviously our away performances (bar that debacle at West Ham) are still much better then those under McLeish, so that should be made clear. Ultimately what we serve up at home though is retrograte football of the lowest order. It is just painful to watch and appalling quite frankly. It's just a complete and utter over reaction. There is no comparision at all. Yes some of what we have served up hasn't been pretty, but it's knowhere at all close to the humiliating anti football rubbish that Mcleish played, we rarely dared get out of our own half. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 (edited) As I said, to say what we produce at home has 'no comparision' with us under McLeish is just complete nonsense when there are obvious similarities regarding the football on show. Edited December 4, 2013 by Isa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villan_007 Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 (edited) As I said, to say what we produce at home has 'no comparision' with us under McLeish is just complete nonsense when there are obvious similarities regarding the football on show. There isn't at all, we go forward, we attack, we pass the ball. Short memories is all it is. Anyone at Westham away lamberts first season???? "We're passing the ball, we're passing the ball, we're Aston Villa and We're passing the ball!" says it all when peoples memories were fresh. Edited December 4, 2013 by villan_007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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