VillaCas Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 Just to clarify 'Blue Sky' argument is concentrating on the positive without also acknowledging the negative. Game by game and in the short term I can see plenty of negatives around individual players and around particular games, but I tend not to focus too much on that In the above highlighted text you've just described the 'Blue Sky' argument perfectly. You really need to get your definition sorted out - which part of "....I can see plenty of negatives...." is it not acknowledging them? IF you mean, someone who sees negatives but prefers to focus on the bigger picture, then I'm happy to be a blue sky thinker I've coined a term for you but I hesitate to quote it in case you go crying to the mods again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 No. The era where managers were given time and weren't sacked after months like they are in the modern age. Can you really dispute that patience isn't exactly in abundance in the present day? You've chosen to take it as some slant on 'ye olde times'. Posts like that just reinforce my view of you as some johnny-come-lately new football fan. Doug Ellis was hardly known for his patience, as any Villa fan older than 12 will tell you. And just because all you've known is Villa in the internet years, doesn't mean that people didn't voice their opinions before fan sites existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted December 1, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted December 1, 2013 (edited) No. The era where managers were given time and weren't sacked after months like they are in the modern age. Can you really dispute that patience isn't exactly in abundance in the present day? You've chosen to take it as some slant on 'ye olde times'. Posts like that just reinforce my view of you as some johnny-come-lately new football fan. Doug Ellis was hardly known for his patience, as any Villa fan older than 12 will tell you. And just because all you've known is Villa in the internet years, doesn't mean that people didn't voice their opinions before fan sites existed. I'm not talking with regards to Villa though. I'm talking within football generally. And (I can't believe I have to continually repeat myself) in modern day football, there is generally less patience. It was a general statement and I've reiterated as much. All I've known is Villa in the internet years? Don't be so patronising. Edited December 1, 2013 by StefanAVFC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaCas Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 No. The era where managers were given time and weren't sacked after months like they are in the modern age. Can you really dispute that patience isn't exactly in abundance in the present day? You've chosen to take it as some slant on 'ye olde times'. Posts like that just reinforce my view of you as some johnny-come-lately new football fan. Doug Ellis was hardly known for his patience, as any Villa fan older than 12 will tell you. And just because all you've known is Villa in the internet years, doesn't mean that people didn't voice their opinions before fan sites existed. Random? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 No. The era where managers were given time and weren't sacked after months like they are in the modern age. Can you really dispute that patience isn't exactly in abundance in the present day? You've chosen to take it as some slant on 'ye olde times'. Posts like that just reinforce my view of you as some johnny-come-lately new football fan. Doug Ellis was hardly known for his patience, as any Villa fan older than 12 will tell you. And just because all you've known is Villa in the internet years, doesn't mean that people didn't voice their opinions before fan sites existed. I'm not talking with regards to Villa though. I'm talking within football generally. And (I can't believe I have to continually repeat myself) in modern day football, there is generally less patience. It was a general statement and I've reiterated as much. All I've known is Villa in the internet years? Don't be so patronising. How old are you, 20 to 21? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted December 1, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted December 1, 2013 No. The era where managers were given time and weren't sacked after months like they are in the modern age. Can you really dispute that patience isn't exactly in abundance in the present day? You've chosen to take it as some slant on 'ye olde times'. Posts like that just reinforce my view of you as some johnny-come-lately new football fan. Doug Ellis was hardly known for his patience, as any Villa fan older than 12 will tell you. And just because all you've known is Villa in the internet years, doesn't mean that people didn't voice their opinions before fan sites existed. Random? Because I make a general statement on the lack of patience in modern football (which is widely accepted and commented upon), I'm a 'new' football fan. I apologise for being born after you Risso. You are clearly a football god and I bow down to your superior knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 Sorry, who is it widely accepted by? There was just as little patience years ago. Look at Ellis sacking BFR shortly after winning the League Cup. It's not your fault that you're a youngster Stefan, but those of us who are a bit older have at least seen the eras they're commenting on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 lol I was trying to work out who bfr was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted December 1, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted December 1, 2013 Just because I didn't experience it doesn't mean I don't know anybody who did. All the people I drink with/see at the game/live with comment on the lack of patience in the modern game. As I said to Briny, you've picked out a few examples of a lack of patience. But even within those examples (particularly Briny's), the manager's tenures were still longer than the average employment in this age of football. My point is, it wasn't commonplace for managers to get sacked so quickly. Now, it's almost a given. Look at the current managers in the PL. Behind Wenger, who's been in a job more than 2 years? 1 year? 6 months? My first point is why it's dangerous to patronise younger fans. They will still know of the past, just because they haven't lived through it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted December 1, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted December 1, 2013 (edited) edit Edited December 1, 2013 by StefanAVFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vandaq Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 I love how every thread on this forum just spins off for a couple of pages sometimes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samjp26 Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 Seriously though now guys, all you're doing is causing the mods headache who will have to clean up this thread soon, can't you just private message each other about whatever beef it is you have and be done with it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 the manager's tenures were still longer than the average employment in this age of football. My point is, it wasn't commonplace for managers to get sacked so quickly. Now, it's almost a given. Look at the current managers in the PL. Behind Wenger, who's been in a job more than 2 years? 1 year? 6 months? My first point is why it's dangerous to patronise younger fans. They will still know of the past, just because they haven't lived through it. Any stats to back up those assertions other than just a gut feeling or received wisdom from your mates? Look at Everton before Moyes was appointed. 7 managers in 12 years. Chelsea? 12 managers in 20 years. Man City had 13 managers between 1970 and 1990. A couple of years has pretty much been the average for as long as I can remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaCas Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 Sorry, who is it widely accepted by? There was just as little patience years ago. Look at Ellis sacking BFR shortly after winning the League Cup. It's not your fault that you're a youngster Stefan, but those of us who are a bit older have at least seen the eras they're commenting on. average life expectancy of a manager at a football club has fallen from 2.7 years in 1992-93 to 1.6 years last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 Sorry, who is it widely accepted by? There was just as little patience years ago. Look at Ellis sacking BFR shortly after winning the League Cup. It's not your fault that you're a youngster Stefan, but those of us who are a bit older have at least seen the eras they're commenting on. average life expectancy of a manager at a football club has fallen from 2.7 years in 1992-93 to 1.6 years last season. I saw that stat, but it's pretty meaningless without showing what the years before that and since are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 I find it staggering how older fans, who were brought up in a football era where things took time, can be so short-sighted and so forthright with their 'get rid of Lambert' calls, so soon into his Villa career. This idea is very amusing. While football may not be as patient as it was why should older fans have a certain view based on their age and what football was like when they were younger? Would you find it staggering if older fans were against replays, coloured boots, the champions league and any other changes football has seen over the years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 Morpheus, not sure what happened, I was posting on your reply and then it said edit. I assume you or someone deleted it? I would like to know what you see as the solution to our clear problems on the pitch. Again, I want to be clear. I see signs of positives mixed with some clear negatives and I suspect that the solutions I see are different, but I would like to know. Just to clarify 'Blue Sky' argument is concentrating on the positive without also acknowledging the negative. I don't need your condescention thanks I tend to focus on the big picture and the long term - generally I think in those terms we are looking good and only an idiot could claim that the trend is not an improving one Game by game and in the short term I can see plenty of negatives around individual players and around particular games, but I tend not to focus too much on that It seems to me that your whole exsitance here is built on anti-Lambert negativity and I can understand that as he gradually turns things round that threatens your position Ha, ha. You acuse me of being condescending and then imply that that i'm an idiot. In the above highlighted text you've just described the 'Blue Sky' argument perfectly. Your third point is post on poster and i will let the mods deal with it. Pot. Kettle. Morpheus, if I may ask. What do you see as the solution to our problems? For what it's worth, I do see many distressing negatives, but I also see some of the positives that you label as "blue sky" and others have labelled as "papering over the cracks." I truly would like to hear what, in your view, is the solution to the deficiencies on the pitch. Actually a very decent question. My 'Blue Sky' comments were mainly directed at those who post without any objectivity. For example quote where we are positioned at the moment without recognising that our football has been awful to watch and that we have indeed been fortunate on occasion to get the results that we have. I have also seen the same posters post in such a way that our current mid table position is going to be definitive for the rest of the season when the same argument was rubbished last season by those very same posters. I have been accused on here of posting in exactly the opposite way of 'Blue Sky' but actually taking all of my posts in context those who have read then properly and without bias will have seen that i have commended the manager when he has done well and indeed praised several of the players including most recently Kozak and Vlaar so those accusations are misguided, ill-informed and for the most part, just ignorant. You asked for my solutions. I think we should have spent less on numbers and more on quality and maybe not alienated all those that the manager did until such time that those players purchased were up to speed with the Premiership and we could have then replaced the remaining players of the bomb squad . I do think change was needed. There's no doubt about that but it should have been more gradual and less of a shock which very nearly got us relegated. Our present style of football has been dire and although the results don't show that some of the stats do and i cannot see us being successful playing the way we are at the moment. You only have to look at what type of football gains more success and it isn't hoof. Of course the manager shouldn't take all of the blame for that as he has had a limited budget to play with but i will say it again it is his allocation of that budget which worries me the most and a lack of technical ability in the players he has purchased apart from Benteke. I praised the manager last season for the form of the team in our run in as i criticised him and wanted him sacked up until the Christmas period and worryingly our present form reflects that of the start of last season again and i will therefore continue to criticise until that form improves. I did reply to your post but here it is again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 FWIW, I see plenty of negatives. I have a right moan at games (not really outwardly at the players, more at the ref ), but it's about stepping back and having a look at the bigger picture. That's the concept that a few seem to be unable to grasp. I can stand here and list off loads of things yesterday that pissed me off. And I came home from the game ticked off. But then, I looked at the league table, looked at our points haul, looked at what we're doing and I can see forward movement. As VF1970 put it nicely, the negative is very short term and the positive is seemingly more long term. Those who are willing to wait for success seem to focus more on positives and those who want success now (for want of a better expression) and lack the patience seem to see the negatives more prominently. All in all, it's a fascinating look at human psychology and how we all see things. The last time we won a prominent trophy was 1996. How long do you suggest that patience lasts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaCas Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 Sorry, who is it widely accepted by? There was just as little patience years ago. Look at Ellis sacking BFR shortly after winning the League Cup. It's not your fault that you're a youngster Stefan, but those of us who are a bit older have at least seen the eras they're commenting on. average life expectancy of a manager at a football club has fallen from 2.7 years in 1992-93 to 1.6 years last season. I saw that stat, but it's pretty meaningless without showing what the years before that and since are. The WBS study showed that average tenure has fallen year on year since 1992-93 I've seen other stats which show that it has falen since the 60s. TBH I can't imagine many people disputing that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaCas Posted December 1, 2013 Share Posted December 1, 2013 FWIW, I see plenty of negatives. I have a right moan at games (not really outwardly at the players, more at the ref ), but it's about stepping back and having a look at the bigger picture. That's the concept that a few seem to be unable to grasp. I can stand here and list off loads of things yesterday that pissed me off. And I came home from the game ticked off. But then, I looked at the league table, looked at our points haul, looked at what we're doing and I can see forward movement. As VF1970 put it nicely, the negative is very short term and the positive is seemingly more long term. Those who are willing to wait for success seem to focus more on positives and those who want success now (for want of a better expression) and lack the patience seem to see the negatives more prominently. All in all, it's a fascinating look at human psychology and how we all see things. The last time we won a prominent trophy was 1996. How long do you suggest that patience lasts? Pathetic This is the Lambert thread so obviously peolpe here are talking about patience with Lambert If your issues are with what's happened in the last 17 years choose a different thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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