The Shay Given thread

[Stevo985]

If we were going to start Given any time soon then a game vs Stoke is genuinely the last one I'd pick.

 

The last thing I want when they're floating balls in to Peter Crouch is Given glued to his line or flapping around the box.

 

Can't wait until Guzan starts and this ridiculous talk stops

Edited February 20, 2015 by Stevo985

[samjp26]

If we were going to start Given any time soon then a game vs Stoke is genuinely the last one I'd pick.

The last thing I want when they're floating balls in to Peter Crouch is Given glued to his line or flapping around the box.

Can't wait until Guzan starts and this ridiculous talk stops

Don't think anybody has said anything ridiculous. Guzan's distribution has been very poor, to the point he kicks the ball out of play quite a lot. He's also made a fair few clangers, so I wouldn't be against Shay being given a chance this weekend.

I still think Guzan is a good keeper, but why shouldn't he have to fight for his place like everybody else?

[Stevo985]

He absolutely should have to fight for his place. Nobody has said otherwise.

 

What's ridiculous is suggesting that 1. Guzan has done something to deserve being dropped and 2. Given has done something to deserve being picked.

Fighting for your place doesn't mean dropping a player who is performing well based on nothing.

 

People are reacting to literally one save.

Say Given had played exactly the same at the weekend. Literally did everything the same. Except that instead of a great shot, Matty James blazed that shot over the bar so Given didn't need to make that worldy save. We wouldn't even be having this discussion.

 

You don't drop your number 1 goalkeeper who has been one of our best players for 3 years because your backup made one good save in a cup game.

 

New manager or no new manager, it would be ludicrous to make that change now.

Especially when the way Stoke play would exploit every weakness that Given has.

 

if Guzan shows some poor form then the discussion may be worth having. but he hasn't. No his distribution isn't the best but it's been that way since he joined us. it's nothing new. he may not have been as brilliant as he was the past couple of seasons but he's still been excellent.

 

Don't let Salifou syndrome kid you into thinking Given would be an improvement. I like Shay a lot. But putting him in goal now would be a huge mistake.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Stevo985

[Tomaszk]

 

 

 

 

Yeah there is that but then I guess Sherwood can say he didn't pick the team so its not like he was the one giving given the chance.

 

If anything I'd hope Sherwood would pick the players based on what he sees in training this week. 

 

 

I'm sure he will - but then there's no guarantee that Guzan has been better in training, is there? 

 

I just don't see why everyone is getting so het up in this thread - he'll pick the team he wants to pick. Then we watch, see how it goes over 90 mins, and then work out where to go from there. Everyone seems determined to get upset about things that not only haven't turned out badly, but haven't even yet happened. 

 

 

I didn't say Guzan would be better in training. What i'm saying is it would make more sense for Sherwood to pick his team based on what he sees in training rather than one cup game, whether it be Guzan or Given that starts.

 

Also I don't think anybody is getting het up. They are just pointing out that Given hasn't done anything to displace Guzan.

 

 

Hmmm.

 

 

 

If Given starts I'll be irritated regardless of whether we win or not (though I'll be buzzing for days before it sets in!).

Given isn't what he used to be. Guzan is the much better keeper and hasn't 'lost' his place.

 

 

 

Given is a better shot stopper. Guzan is better at commanding his area and collecting crosses. Guzan has been disappointing for me this season. (who hasnt though..)

I would pick Given on form but long term its obviously Guzan.. do you maybe pick Given for a little while till he drops form and risk upsetting Guzan?

Tough call. Not as clear cut as some may believe.

Sorry? You'd pick Given on form, from one game? That's a joke. Guzan has been brilliant for the most part of nearly three years now and you'd pick Given on form?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Given is a better shot stopper. Guzan is better at commanding his area and collecting crosses. Guzan has been disappointing for me this season. (who hasnt though..)

 

I would pick Given on form but long term its obviously Guzan.. do you maybe pick Given for a little while till he drops form and risk upsetting Guzan? 

 

Tough call. Not as clear cut as some may believe. 

It's not a remotely tough call. Given isn't fit to lace Guzan's boots

 

Guzan is not in good form.. so yes i disagree with you.

 

Guzan is hardly in bad form. How many goals has he cost us directly compared with the upset bringing shay in would cause to the defence?  Too many people don't have the first clue about goalkeeping on these sites. Christ.

 

 

Here's an idea - why don't we all wait until he names the teamsheet before we start having conniptions? Or an even better idea - wait until the game is finished, and we've seen the performance of whoever the goalie was?

 

I'll carry on debating and posting opinion on a discussion forum thanks.

 

You log off until after the game.

[KSV]

I have to say I wouldn't be against Given starting this weekend. If we're going to be launching balls up to Benteke, Guzan hasn't shown any sort of good delivery at all this season.

its not just that.. there were quite a few goals that i thought he could have done a little better with this season. Some games hes been great.. some games hes been below average.. and i think its because hes the no.1. Shay Given played well and it wasnt just that one save.. he had a few decent moments.. but also the new manager coming in is added pressure to Brad. I think thats a good thing.. and if he thinks Shay is the no.1 then so be it.. even if it is just for a few games to get Brad going again.

[Dirtysanchez]

Shay can find Benteke with a goal kick, Guzan barely finds Hutton. I don't see the harm in Shay starting to be honest

[Stevo985]

Shay can find Benteke with a goal kick, Guzan barely finds Hutton. I don't see the harm in Shay starting to be honest

Now you're just making things up.

 

You can't see the harm?

Shay's biggest weaknesses are his lack of command of his penalty area and his claiming of crosses.

 

And you think there's no harm in him starting vs Stoke?

 

I honestly can't believe this discussion is happening.

 

Salifou syndrome strikes again

[Dirtysanchez]

Guzan puts us under pressure from a goal kick, are you disputing this? Shay is a better shot stopper, Brad commands the box better, we have a good group of big defenders in front to try and help Shay here. I know Shay is 38 but Brad being dropped may not be a bad thing, by passing the midfield with goal kicks isn't exactly a bad thing either seeing as we struggle to create anything on the ground. It's just my opinion by the way don't get too upset by it

Edited February 20, 2015 by Dirtysanchez

[Stevo985]

Guzan puts us under pressure from a goal kick, are you disputing this? Shay is a better shot stopper, Brad commands the box better, we have a good group of big defenders in front to try and help Shay here. I know Shay is 38 but Brad being dropped may not be a bad thing, by passing the midfield with goal kicks isn't exactly a bad thing either seeing as we struggle to create anything on the ground. It's just my opinion by the way don't get too upset by it

I'm not upset. I just disagree with basically everything you say.

 

yes I am disputing that. Guzan kicks it to Benteke. Every time. it actually infuriates me as I'd like to see it kept shorter. But if you're asking Given to lump it to Benteke then I'm not sure why you don't want Guzan. Because that's what he does every time he has a goal kick.

 

Unless your defenders are taller than Brad Guzan with his arms above his head then your point about big defenders helping Shay is completely irrelevant. 

 

I find it so strange that you're advocating dropping Guzan because Shay Given's goal kicks are better. That is a weird criteria for your goalkeeper to have. Again, especially against Stoke when nearly every other aspect of being a goalkeeper will be tested more than goal kicks.

 

It's amazing how much better Shay Given has gotten since he hasn't played.

[Dirtysanchez]

Guzan does not kick it to Benteke every time, are you sure you watch us play? The amount of times he kicks it to Hutton and Cissokho is ridiculous. I would like to see Shay play cos I have always been a huge fan and still am not simply for his goal kicks ffs!

[Stevo985]

Guzan does not kick it to Benteke every time, are you sure you watch us play? The amount of times he kicks it to Hutton and Cissokho is ridiculous. I would like to see Shay play cos I have always been a huge fan and still am not simply for his goal kicks ffs!

Sometimes he passes short to Hutton and Cissokho. What's wrong with that? 

As long as he doesn't kick it to the opposition then I don't see the problem.

Plus that's probably a general instruction.

When he kicks it long, it goes long and always goes to Benteke (I don't mean literally always. I'm using always in a general term. The majority of times it goes to Benteke)

 

Look. I've sourced some stats to back it up.

 

This is one of Guzan's chalkboards from a game this season.

Every single short pass is complete (blue arrow). The only pass in his own half that is incomplete is that one at the bottom that goes almost to the half way line.

Then there is a huge cluster of goal kicks and clearances that go long and are mostly aimed at...?

 

Here's Benteke's heat map from the same game

 

Notice that hot spot just over the halfway line? (Little confusing because the heat map is orientated in the opposite direction to the Guzan diagram)

you'll notice that lines up pretty much perfectly with where all those goal kicks are aimed

So am I sure I watch us play? Yes I am. 

 

Are you?

Edited February 20, 2015 by Stevo985

[Zatman]

Given is past it but is well capable as a back up, he is probably 2nd best back up keeper in the league

[Stevo985]

I realise the above is starting to sound like I'm anti-Given.

 

I'm really not. I like Shay a lto and, as Zatman says, he's a hugely competent goalkeeper.

if Guzan was showing poor form then I'd have no issues with Given stepping in.

 

My problem is people suggesting Guzan should be dropped when he's done nothing to deserve it, imo.

[HanoiVillan]

 

I'll carry on debating and posting opinion on a discussion forum thanks.

 

 

You log off until after the game.

 

 

[Oaks]

I like the way some people are saying picking Given on form...after 1 save, and and fumble.

I've never rated Given, his flaws were evident on Sunday (stuck on his line, not aggressive from set plays) he's 38 these are not going to change. Pick the best keeper ffs

[heid3ster]

if Guzan was showing poor form then I'd have no issues with Given stepping in.

 

 

He really has been below par all season, tbf, making errors we would never have seen from him last season. His distribution's gotten worse if anything.

 

That said, I agree with Stevo that Guzan should start on Saturday. He deserves a clean slate with the new manager, as does everyone else. If he gives Sherwood a reason to drop him I would have no problem with Given taking his spot, but I think he's earned the right to show the new boss what he can do.

Edited February 20, 2015 by heid3ster

[KJT123]

 

Guzan does not kick it to Benteke every time, are you sure you watch us play? The amount of times he kicks it to Hutton and Cissokho is ridiculous. I would like to see Shay play cos I have always been a huge fan and still am not simply for his goal kicks ffs!

Sometimes he passes short to Hutton and Cissokho. What's wrong with that? 

As long as he doesn't kick it to the opposition then I don't see the problem.

Plus that's probably a general instruction.

When he kicks it long, it goes long and always goes to Benteke (I don't mean literally always. I'm using always in a general term. The majority of times it goes to Benteke)

 

Look. I've sourced some stats to back it up.

 

This is one of Guzan's chalkboards from a game this season.

Every single short pass is complete (blue arrow). The only pass in his own half that is incomplete is that one at the bottom that goes almost to the half way line.

Then there is a huge cluster of goal kicks and clearances that go long and are mostly aimed at...?

 

Here's Benteke's heat map from the same game

 

Notice that hot spot just over the halfway line? (Little confusing because the heat map is orientated in the opposite direction to the Guzan diagram)

you'll notice that lines up pretty much perfectly with where all those goal kicks are aimed

So am I sure I watch us play? Yes I am. 

 

Are you?

 

 

Con?

[Killeen30]

I think Guzans been under par this season. Some bad mistakes, awful delivery at times. I think its fair to give Given a chance now.

No he hasn't, maybe not as good as he was last season but certainly one of our better players easy!

[Stevo985]

Agreed. He's not been as good as he was last season. But he's still been very good, certainly better than Given.

[Killeen30]

It's really hard to say that he's been better than Given considering Given has only play aha duff of games spread out over about 6 months this season. However Brads done nothing to warrant being dropped and he's a top goal keeper in my eyes.