U.S. Politics

[snowychap]

1 hour ago, VILLAMARV said:

The only way this becomes acceptable for Trump to discard the political facade is that the Rule of Law has been usurped. Last year the authorities blew up a US citizen with a bomb on a robot (which they have for disposing of bombs - irony) without charge, arrest or trial.

I think this is really important and it is where the Obama administration has to shoulder some of the responsibility for what we see happening and what may/is likely to happen in the future.

The general accusations of executive overreach and the specific issues with ordering extra-judicial execution of a US citizen have largely been either shrugged off or celebrated. It's a process question not a policy one. This is a blueprint for the new administration and it would have been whatever the result of the election, the bigger issue with it now is that there isn't an obvious brake (with Republican majorities elsewhere).

It's a similar problem to the increased and increasing use of Statutory Instruments in this country that bypass Parliamentary scrutiny and debate and put in to law the diktats of the executive.

[PieFacE]

Some opinions in this thread are genuinely frightening. I'm glad they are being aired though. I think people not feeling like they can speak their opinion is partly what's got us into this mess. 

As for wanting America or anywhere else in the world to become a more "christian" country... **** that. We need to move away from all religion, and we should be leading the way with that.

 

[Rugeley Villa]

2 hours ago, snowychap said:

Some of us post quite a bit about how we object to our government's attitude with regard to Saudi Arabia (and other countries) and with the actions of those governments.

You've obviously not read Awol's posts, for instance, about them.

Yes I've read Awol's posts regarding the evil that is Saudi Arabia. 

[snowychap]

Customs and Border Patrol chief says that 872 refugees will arrive in the next week and receive waivers (which confirms rumours that were rolling around last night).

Will they have gone through the new extreme vetting process that hasn't been formulated yet? Will there be some 'bad dudes' amongst them?

Again, it all seems more than a little amateur.

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

35 minutes ago, PieFacE said:

Some opinions in this thread are genuinely frightening. I'm glad they are being aired though. I think people not feeling like they can speak their opinion is partly what's got us into this mess. 

As for wanting America or anywhere else in the world to become a more "christian" country... **** that. We need to move away from all religion, and we should be leading the way with that.

 

It's the only way to permanently fix the world,  everything that is causing problems at the moment from Wars to Trump to travel bans can all be rewound to religion as the single original catalyst.

 

[snowychap]

7 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said:

Yes I've read Awol's posts regarding the evil that is Saudi Arabia. 

Well, in and around his posts there are often posts from other posters agreeing with him and pointing out that they are not too fond of the relationship that this country has with Saudi Arabia. This is not just a new thing as this is historically quite a common position in VT Off Topic and I can remember it going back at least as far criticism of the SFO's decision to drop the investigation in to BAe and bribery.

[Keyblade]

I think the craziest thing that's happened this week was the naming of Steve Bannon to the National Security Council.

[VILLAMARV]

1 hour ago, snowychap said:

I think this is really important and it is where the Obama administration has to shoulder some of the responsibility for what we see happening and what may/is likely to happen in the future.

The general accusations of executive overreach and the specific issues with ordering extra-judicial execution of a US citizen have largely been either shrugged off or celebrated. It's a process question not a policy one. This is a blueprint for the new administration and it would have been whatever the result of the election, the bigger issue with it now is that there isn't an obvious brake (with Republican majorities elsewhere).

It's a similar problem to the increased and increasing use of Statutory Instruments in this country that bypass Parliamentary scrutiny and debate and put in to law the diktats of the executive.

Point the finger at Obama sure, he's as complicit as the rest of them. But it's actually easy to scapegoat the mascot. Focus too much on him and there's no one thinking about the Bush's, Clinton, Reagan and beyond. Truth is in our lives whether we can remember the 50's,60's,70's,80's and so on we have been watching footage of a country whose police force seem to operate outside the Rule of Law all the time. Add into that the years of propaganda culminating in programmes like 24 and Homeland being acceptable tea time viewing and it's not hard to see why such large proportions of people think torture is ok.

You are spot on it's a question of process in relation to the illegal killings of US citizens. History tends to show that these problems don't end up being resolved with diplomacy when the population are so apathetic towards the implications. Things usually get a lot worse before people realise what's happening around them isn't ok.

[snowychap]

9 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

Point the finger at Obama sure, he's as complicit as the rest of them. But it's actually easy to scapegoat the mascot.

I don't think I'm scapegoating him (though others may well) but I was under the impression that government by executive order vastly increased under his watch? Yes, the progression over time is for the executive to act further and further in that way but, as with things here, it has really ramped up over time. I think the other point about Obama is that there is an innate disappointment that someone who supposedly represented 'hope and change' did it and, unfortunately, there wasn't enough criticism of him when he did.

9 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

You are spot on it's a question of process in relation to the illegal killings of US citizens.

My point about process was to imply that there are two different things to disagree with here - process and policy. I happen to disagree with them both (on that matter as with some others). I am most worried with those who agree with them both but it is all those who don't care about process (whether or not they agree with the policy details) who actually facilitate the making and execution of bad policy.

Edited January 31, 2017 by snowychap

[Davkaus]

26 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Customs and Border Patrol chief says that 872 refugees will arrive in the next week and receive waivers (which confirms rumours that were rolling around last night).

Will they have gone through the new extreme vetting process that hasn't been formulated yet? Will there be some 'bad dudes' amongst them?

Again, it all seems more than a little amateur.

They're 'shooting from the hip'. Many of the morons that voted Trump seem to admire this quality.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Davkaus

[Davkaus]

2 hours ago, Chindie said:

Suicide bomb. Smuggled on the plane with nobody noticing. They're born with bomb chemistry in their DNA, the best people have told me. Made it in his crib. Waiting for this moment. The best intelligence tells us. The best.

words removed.

It seems far fetched, but we won't know until someone waterboards the little islamist.

[Arj Guy]

7 hours ago, Keyblade said:

1 in 4 Americans believe that homosexuality should be a crime. Let that sink in, and this is in the land of the free and brave. Comparing those Christians to Muslims in failed states, dictatorships and lawless countries on the face of it is disingenuous. 

1 in 2 British muslims think homosexuality should be a crime, 1 in 4 British muslims want sharia law in majority muslim areas, one in 3 British muslims refuse to condem the stoning of women accused on adultery. 

Edited January 31, 2017 by Arj Guy

[VILLAMARV]

100% of Borg agree with Christianity's assimilation policy

[Chindie]

45 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

It seems far fetched, but we won't know until someone waterboards the little islamist.

Why waste the water? We've got lots of ammo sitting around...

[Chindie]

 

[Keyblade]

27 minutes ago, Arj Guy said:

1 in 2 British muslims think homosexuality should be a crime, 1 in 4 British muslims want sharia law in majority muslim areas, one in 3 British muslims refuse to condem the stoning of women accused on adultery. 

Okay? The stat I posted was of all Americans, not just Christians...because you know, pollsters never single out any particular groups other than Muslims and ask questions like that, not least white Christians. Anyway there was a multi-faith poll done in the States on same sex marriage, and American Christians and Muslims were pretty much the same (though like i said earlier Muslims were more in favour than all but 3 demoninations, in some cases three or fourfold).

[snowychap]

On the subject of Sally Yates's 'betrayal' and the Trump nominee:

This is a longer clip of the questioning which has Sessions saying, at about 4:11, "I hope that you feel able to say no in the character of John Ashcroft..."

 

Edited January 31, 2017 by snowychap

[Arj Guy]

10 hours ago, Chindie said:

Horseshit.

I don't like Islam. I don't like religion full stop. I don't like people that use violence to force their beliefs. I think of myself as quite a liberal person.

There are extremist elements of Islam that it needs to combat. One a fool would disagree.

But this reads like a condemnation of Muslims full stop. I've worked with, been friends with, encountered day to day with people who would describe themselves as Muslim. A few of them where words removed. Not because they were Muslim, but because they were words removed. A lot of them were lovely people, because they were nice people. And most of them just got on with their day. Because they're normal people.

The rigged thinking here is you and your cohort of halfwits revealing themselves here.

As for the core of the religion? Have you read the Bible? It's quite specific about the instructions to punish people, gays, adulterers, people with sideburns, people who wear mixed textiles. Most people ignore it. Most Muslims do to.

The sheer tone of supremacy in this post is laughable.

 

I also am friends with muslims.  I did not critisize muslims just islam. Read my comment again..

Anyway we are talking faith who's prophet was a paedophile warlord. Isis are only doing what Muhammad did himself and are following the teachings of the Q'uran. What the likes of Osama did was a perfectly reasonable interpretation of Islam. 

 

A huge problem with Islam is that only Islam preaches martyrdom as one of its central principles. A belief in which can turn an ordinary person into a dangerous religious maniac. Jihad is fully explained by an interpretation of Islamic scripture. All jihadists are Muslim. If even 1 percent of the world’s Muslims are potential jihadists, we have a terrible problem on our hands. I’m not sure how we deal with 16 million aspiring martyrs—but lying to ourselves about the nature of the problem doesn’t seem like the best strategy.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Arj Guy

[Arj Guy]

47 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

Okay? The stat I posted was of all Americans, not just Christians...because you know, pollsters never single out any particular groups other than Muslims and ask questions like that, not least white Christians. Anyway there was a multi-faith poll done in the States on same sex marriage, and American Christians and Muslims were pretty much the same (though like i said earlier Muslims were more in favour than all but 3 demoninations, in some cases three or fourfold).

 

[Chindie]

1 hour ago, Arj Guy said:

 

I also am friends with muslims.  I did not critisize muslims just islam. Read my comment again..

Anyway we are talking faith who's prophet was a paedophile warlord. Isis are only doing what Muhammad did himself and are following the teachings of the Q'uran. What the likes of Osama did was a perfectly reasonable interpretation of Islam. I agree Christianity and the Bible contain/contained  similar things in regards to homophobia etc but Christianity has reformed.

 

A huge problem with Islam is that only Islam preaches martyrdom as one of its central principles. A belief in which can turn an ordinary person into a dangerous religious maniac. Jihad is fully explained by an interpretation of Islamic scripture. All jihadists are Muslim. If even 1 percent of the world’s Muslims are potential jihadists, we have a terrible problem on our hands. I’m not sure how we deal with 16 million aspiring martyrs—but lying to ourselves about the nature of the problem doesn’t seem like the best strategy.

It seems incongruous to say you aren't criticising Muslims and follow that comment with one that speculates that 'if even 1% are potential jihadists...'. Those comments don't seem to sit well together. One betrays a suspicion.

I'm quite familiar with Islamism. I more or less have a degree on the study of it and terrorism, as it was one of my specialisms.

You mention Muhammad as a paedophile warlord. A couple of things. It's difficult to bring modern sensibilities to historical figures. A great deal of historical names will have done things we'd find objectional today. In the past, nobody cared. An enormous number of lauded figures in world history would be considered warlords by today's standards. 

Secondly... There's a common logical fallacy that states that the art can be derided for the artist. Hitler loved dogs and home movies, therefore home movies and dogs are bad. If you can't ignore the nature of Muhammad's life, it doesn't mean that Islam is 'bad' too because he started it. It's a logical phallacy. Now I don't like Islam, at all, but not because of Muhammad. I dislike it on the same grounds I dislike the rest of the mumbo jumbo peddlers.

There's no argument that the Bible contains some horrific stuff. It's all still there, someone in the wrong frame of mind can use it to justify quite unpleasant things. It's in the Torah too. And the Quran has all the same rubbish in it. And all of these books are interpreted in different ways and you get the madness that leads to Islamists and the Westboro Baptist church and other cults and hardcore Judaism. Islam isn't unique in that respect. Christianity had the Reformation 500 years ago (I'm listening to a podcast at the moment that deals with a small element of the fall out of that that sees Christianity justifying some horrific stuff - it's interestingly familiar considering this debate). Islam is a younger religion and it does have some difficulties in that it hasn't been overhauled much due to its supposed nature as the absolute word of God... But it's interesting to note that even in the Middle East Islam has mostly rejected the truly hardcore interpretations of itself (obvious exceptions apply). And that'll only improve as the world gets smaller and more entwined and Islam is forced to adapt to a world that doesn't entirely accommodate religion. It's started already.

Preaching martyrdom? Christianity deifies martyrs. It's poster boy is a martyr. An awful lot of saints are martyrs. Sacrifice for your faith is still admired in many quarters. Christianity isn't seeing itself fighting a war. It's easy to spin a yarn of martyrdom to willing ears if you can chuck the idea you're at war. Jihad itself is interpreted numerous ways and usually is considered as an internal struggle (doesn't make the headlines that), rather similar to the hackneyed internal struggle of Catholicism and the guilt it breeds in adherents.

I've no argument at all that Islam requires is own Reformation. It'll get there eventually. The real nutjobs are already a minority. And anyone who justifies slaughter because of a book wouldn't get my piss if they were on fire. And I'd happily chuck every copy of the Quran on a fire, alongside the Bible and the Torah and all the other claptrap, consigning religion to the scrap heap of humanity were it belongs.

But with that considered, I'm not going to condemn all Muslims, damning then all as terrorists in waiting. You say you have Muslim friends - but everything you've written seems to suggest you are quietly judging and suspicious of them. 

Edited January 31, 2017 by Chindie