Straggler Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 38 minutes ago, Awol said: Me too and focusing on the same period. I still think it's a massive stretch to try and compare the two situations. Germany was an economic basket case, US 2016 is still the strongest economy in the world. Germany was carrying a massive post war chip on its shoulder having lost WW1, the US 2016 is a peerless global military power. The Brownshirts were a Party affiliated para-military force highly active on the streets. There is no and there could be no equivalent in the US. Germany's state political and security institutions were young, weak & overmatched. US institutions are mature, diverse & extremely strong, backed by a robust civil society and the greatest English language document ever written, the US Constitution. Clearly we could go on with this list for pages, suffice it to say I think the comparison is baseless, alarmist & frankly ludicrous. I love history, although this discussion does rather put pay to the common misconception that hindsight is 20/20. If hindsight was 100% accurate all historians would agree on everything. TBF I agree with much of what you have written about. I very nearly put a comparison of post war Germany and present day USA in my last post for the sake of context. I think if I was saying that the rise of Trump the rise of Hitler are the same and will lead to the same result it would be a massive stretch. However I think I could write a pretty interesting (to me anyway) dissertation comparing the two and I could do it in a way that has a basis in fact, without hyperbole and without being ludicrous. I wouldn't like to second guess my conclusions without doing the research fully first, I know almost nothing about Donald Trump outside what I have seen in this election whereas I've read chapter and verse on Hitler. 2 small bones of contention. That there could be no equivalent of the brownshirts in the US is a prediction of the future presented as a fact. The greatest document ever written in the English Language is not the US constitution. I prefer Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post OutByEaster? Posted November 9, 2016 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted November 9, 2016 I've been thinking about the attraction of Trump for voters and I guess there are a few things that come to mind - first the idea that the world is complicated and confusing, the news is distressing and hard to understand - Trump bashes through that, tells you the world is simple for him and that he'll fix it. There's a comfort in that as long as you don't listen too hard to the words - and even if you do, there's a feeling that they all lie and that this guy will make mistakes but he'll be moving forward. A manager of mine once said people that get things done are more important than people who get things right, and Trump definitely gives you the impression that he'll make things happen, even if some of them are mistakes - in a complicated world, where no one can do anything, that makes him reassuringly simple. He's also got the modern US father figure going for him, he's Homer Simpson, he's Peter Griffin - sure he's oafish, he's clumsy and he doesn't always say the right thing, but he's always doing something and his heart's in the right place. That's the lesson from TV, so it must be true right? He's an odd figure, he's won a political contest almost entirely by not being a politician, or even more pointedly by being a bad politician - I think he fools people into thinking that if he's dumb enough to say that dumb thing out loud because he's honest, then when he says that other thing, we can trust him really because he just can't help but tell the truth, not like the others. Hillary is kinda shifty in comparison, she might be doing something good, she might not, she ain't gonna explain it to you. That's as good as I got and for me it's not enough - the US must be a strange, strange place. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 9, 2016 Moderator Share Posted November 9, 2016 13 minutes ago, TheStagMan said: the EEC (created in 1957 by the treaty of Rome) was a trading block, not a peacekeeping force, not a political union, and was very very different from the EU of today. It had no role in preventing wars. That's not true. It was set up, or more accurately it's predecessor was, specifically to prevent wars via the interdependence of nations on each other for trade, so that they would always have a strong reason never to do war with each other again. That's continued ever since. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheStagMan Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 (edited) 5 minutes ago, blandy said: That's not true. It was set up, or more accurately it's predecessor was, specifically to prevent wars via the interdependence of nations on each other for trade, so that they would always have a strong reason never to do war with each other again. That's continued ever since. Interesting. I have read the treaty of Rome (and the Maastricht treaty) and I don't recall seeing that in there (it was part of a college thesis 20+ years ago). Edited November 9, 2016 by TheStagMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted November 9, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted November 9, 2016 (edited) Is anyone else concerned about the rise of the alt-right? People are being radicalised online and it isn't a minor movement. Edited November 9, 2016 by StefanAVFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted November 9, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted November 9, 2016 2 minutes ago, TheStagMan said: Interesting. I have read the treaty of Rome (and the Maastricht treaty) and I don't recall seeing that in there. It started as the ECSC with the explicit aim of forcing France and Germany to trade with each other to make war economically unviable between them, with the upside also getting both back on their feet with natural resources. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 51 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: Did you exclude the 8 years of Bush there on purpose or? What terrible things happened under Obama? I'm genuinely interested, i ask out of ignorance. No, I think America has been a terrible country for a long time. It doesn't seem to matter who is in charge. Bush, Clinton or Obama. Terrible things under Obama - sandy hook school shooting. Police brutality killings and the militarised police forces attacking peaceful protesters. Drones consistently killing people in foreign lands. I'm sure there's more. I'm not a trump fan or any fan of any American politician. I did like the sound of Bernie Sanders though. My point is that America is a pretty awful country in so many ways. It's been like it regardless of who is in charge. While trump is a worry I don't think he's the impending doom on what was a great country before him. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted November 9, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted November 9, 2016 1 minute ago, DCJonah said: No, I think America has been a terrible country for a long time. This is where the perspective is off. Regardless of all those things, it's still one of the best countries in the world to live in. In context, America is great, was great and will continue to be great. The more I think that this election, the more I think Trump and his campaign are geniuses and the DNC are absolutely moronic. Clinton was exactly the wrong candidate to face Trump. Sanders was anti-establishment but incredibly progressive and with none of the nastiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAuthority Posted November 9, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted November 9, 2016 (edited) 4 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: The more I think that this election, the more I think Trump and his campaign are geniuses and the DNC are absolutely moronic. Clinton was exactly the wrong candidate to face Trump. I disagree - There's a lot of commentary swirling around and this article gives some clearer reflection on the historical race issues that have really been at the undertone of this whole process. Good Morning, America. Welcome To Your White Supremacy Quote Just yesterday, I was saying that we should be looking at the post-reconstruction South in order to understand what has been happening with Trump voters. But when I wrote those words yesterday morning, I was writing them with more than a little hope that when we got together to discuss this, it would be with a sense of relief of the tragedy we had just narrowly avoided. But we did not avoid that tragedy. We did not even swerve. We stayed on that road that we paved hundreds of years ago and we gunned it. And here we are. Good morning. Welcome to your White Supremacist Patriarchy. There will be a lot of hand-wringing and excuse-giving and scapegoating in the upcoming days as we try to grapple with what just happened. But let’s not get it twisted: Trump will be our next president, not because Hillary is unlikeable, not because of third-party voters, not because of an enthusiasm gap in black voters. We have elected violent white supremacist patriarchy into office because the vast majority of white American voters chose to elect violent white supremacist patriarchy into office. This has been building from the moment Barack Obama was elected to the presidency eight years ago. That was when the white supremacist patriarchy realized that they were losing a very important war. Equal marriage rights, Black Lives Matter and then, a female presidential candidate–-everything that the white supremacist patriarchy relies upon for its core identity has been under attack. And we have been gaining ground at lightning-fast speed, leaving white supremacist patriarchy demoralized, bitter, and afraid. After the Civil War, after the South lost, a lot of effort was made to rebuild a new South. A South that could live in a new post-slavery world. A South where the real power no longer rested with those who owned other human beings. The reliance on the slave economy had already been hurting the south–the world had already begun to move past it–and there were hopes that this reconstruction would resurrect the Southern economy and structure a new modern society. The ability to own slaves was more than just an economic reality. To many in the South, it was an identity. An identity of superiority and power. It was a birthright to wake up knowing that you were not black, you were not a slave, you were more. You inherited your slaves and your superiority like your father and his father before him. And the South would rather burn itself down before it let that go. And what followed was a period of terror that left black Americans forever scarred and the South forever left behind. But it wasn’t only the South that relied upon the oppression of others for its identity. The majority of white America has relied upon its identity of powerful, straight, Christian whiteness since this country’s murderous inception. The majority of white males in America have been born expecting to be at the top of that hierarchy. But the rest of the country did not lose the Civil War. The rest of the country was not plunged into immediate identity crisis at the end of the 19th century. And as long as the South was distracting everyone with a sustained and very violent fit, the rest of white America was safe in their quiet positions of power. But progress came for the North eventually. Equality came for the rest of white America and white America has responded with the same fear and hatred that the South responded to at the end of the Civil War. White America has proven once again that it would rather burn itself down and be king of the ashes, than share a better world with everyone else. Do not think that you woke up today in a different world. You woke up in the same white supremacist patriarchy that you’ve been waking up to your entire life. Know that this is why our country is the way it is. This is why our black men are in prison. This is why we have a gender wage gap. This is why our Indigenous American brothers and sisters are currently being pepper sprayed and attacked by dogs for trying to protect our environment. This is why our women are being raped at a rate of one in five. This is why white households have 12 times the wealth of black households and 10 times the wealth of Hispanic households. Because we live in a country that is so scared of change that it would elect Donald Trump for president. And we’ve always lived in that country. So now it’s in the open. Now there is no denying that we live in a White Supremacist Patriarchy that the majority of white people in just about every demographic in America voted for. Now we know that the problem isn’t personal preference, it is not the economy, it is not lack of education. Now we know that there is no middle ground. Now we know that it is our very liberation that is the threat. So we can’t give up. We must fight, we must continue the progress that has made the majority of white America so scared, and we must fight for that progress harder than ever before. Because there is only freedom or oppression; now is a time for each of us to decide which of the two we will define ourselves by. http://www.thestranger.com/slog/2016/11/09/24680638/good-morning-america-welcome-to-your-white-supremacy Edited November 9, 2016 by TheAuthority Bolded appropriate section of article 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 (edited) 9 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: This is where the perspective is off. Regardless of all those things, it's still one of the best countries in the world to live in. In context, America is great, was great and will continue to be great. The more I think that this election, the more I think Trump and his campaign are geniuses and the DNC are absolutely moronic. Clinton was exactly the wrong candidate to face Trump. Sanders was anti-establishment but incredibly progressive and with none of the nastiness. For rich white people, yes it is probably one of the best to live in. And I'm sure they think America is great. For others not so much. The DNC **** up big time. Sanders could have done some good. Edited November 9, 2016 by DCJonah 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted November 9, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted November 9, 2016 Just now, DCJonah said: For rich white people, yes it is probably one of the best to live in. And I'm sure they think America is great. For others not so much. Again, I would disagree. I think that's a massive oversimplification based on feelings again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 37 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: He has no excuses if he doesn't Make America Great Again. He will have plenty of people to blame it on and it won't be just the immigrants, the muslims, the mexicans, and the illegals. It'll be the 'establishment' and then it'll be the other politicians and then it'll be the people without 'American values'. You know, folks, you know what they look like; they're in all of your communities; they're the ones stopping you from succeeding just like they're stopping The Donald from succeeding. Root them out; deal with them; we can't allow THEM to win; don't stop until we've made America great again. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted November 9, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted November 9, 2016 Just now, snowychap said: He will have plenty of people to blame it on and it won't be just the immigrants, the muslims, the mexicans, and the illegals. It'll be the 'establishment' and then it'll be the other politicians and then it'll be the people without 'American values'. You know, folks, you know what they look like; they're in all of your communities; they're the ones stopping you from succeeding just like they're stopping The Donald from succeeding. Root them out; deal with them; we can't allow THEM to win; don't stop until we've made America great again. So then he can't lose. If he succeeds, great (he won't) but if he makes things worse, he'll slag off other people and his supporters will lap it up again. Never-ending depressing loop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted November 9, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted November 9, 2016 4 minutes ago, DCJonah said: The DNC **** up big time. Sanders could have done some good. I agree with you on that. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 2 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: Again, I would disagree. I think that's a massive oversimplification based on feelings again. That's because it's a pretty simple point I'm making. Life is shit for plenty of Americans. Just because you say it's one of the best countries to live in doesn't make it so for those people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted November 9, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted November 9, 2016 Just now, DCJonah said: That's because it's a pretty simple point I'm making. Life is shit for plenty of Americans. Just because you say it's one of the best countries to live in doesn't make it so for those people. To be fair you're doing exactly the same thing. You're saying it's a terrible country to live in based on what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshVilla Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 So many salty celebrities on Twitter right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 Wow, it actually happened. Can't quite get my head around it. How shit must Clinton have been? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted November 9, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted November 9, 2016 "Salty" Is there a more pathetic word to describe people being concerned about the future of their country? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 1 minute ago, StefanAVFC said: To be fair you're doing exactly the same thing. You're saying it's a terrible country to live in based on what? Based on that it is for a lot of people. Health care, pharmaceutical companies, aggressive police forces, mass incarceration, mass shootings, areas of real poverty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts