MakemineVanilla Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 21 minutes ago, ml1dch said: I don't think that "both sides should face the same consequences if they break the law" is the unpopular opinion that you seem to believe that it might be. I think it will be if it is their guy who is in the dock. Be careful what you ask for. As Beria famously said, "Show me the man and I will show you the crime!". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 11 minutes ago, bickster said: A functioning independent judiciary system is one of the essential checks and balances on power in any democracy. To consider that using the judicial system against a criminal who also happens to be a politician as weaponising the judiciary is beyond stupid, in any democracy and towards any party. Your statement sits well alongside accusing judges of being traitors and using terms like activist lawyers, just to put it in a UK context for a sec. Law is a matter of interpretation, which is why both parties battle to get their own judges into crucial posts. Isn't the sticking point in the present case against Trump, an argument about whether it is a misdemeanor or a felony? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 16 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said: Law is a matter of interpretation, which is why both parties battle to get their own judges into crucial posts. Isn't the sticking point in the present case against Trump, an argument about whether it is a misdemeanor or a felony? I don’t believe so, seems to be for other reasons but to cover a few points you’ve raised over a couple of comments, the NYTimes covers some of it…part of it below https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/21/opinion/trump-indictment-alvin-bragg.html Quote But does that mean the Manhattan criminal case is an example of selective prosecution — in other words, going after a political enemy for a crime that no one else would be charged with? Not by a long shot. To begin with, Mr. Trump’s former lawyer Michael Cohen, who was instrumental in the scheme, has already pleaded guilty to a federal crime emanating from this conduct and served time for it and other crimes. Federal prosecutors told the court that Mr. Cohen “acted in coordination with and at the direction of” Mr. Trump (identified as “Individual 1”). It would be anathema to the rule of law not to prosecute the principal for the crime when a lower-level conspirator has been prosecuted. Mr. Bragg, however, has had to pick up the slack, since federal prosecutors have not pursued such charges, for reasons that were clear under the corrupt influence of William Barr, who is reported to have shut down any follow-up investigation of Mr. Trump. But it remains murky as to why a criminal investigation or indictment of Mr. Trump has not been pursued under the current administration (Attorney General Merrick Garland has not explained publicly any reason for not pursuing this investigation). You have 4 free articles remaining. Subscribe to The Times As a state prosecutor, Mr. Bragg cannot bring the same federal campaign finance charge to which Mr. Cohen pleaded guilty. He has various options nonetheless. New York district attorney offices have often charged people with having filed a false business record, both as a felony and as a misdemeanor. The crime is a clear felony if it is done with intent to aid or cover up another crime and otherwise is a misdemeanor. This charge focuses on the means that Mr. Trump and Mr. Cohen apparently devised to carry out the alleged scheme: Mr. Cohen would arrange for the payments to Ms. Daniels, Mr. Trump would reimburse Mr. Cohen, and Mr. Cohen and Mr. Trump would cover up the true nature of the payments by recording the reimbursement as legal fees pursuant to a “retainer agreement” that the Justice Department said never existed. Because such “fees” would need to be reported by Mr. Cohen on his taxes, the Trump Organization paid Mr. Cohen substantial additional sums to pay for these taxes. Similarly, to keep the Daniels payments secret, neither Mr. Trump nor his campaign would report the payments as a campaign contribution by either Mr. Cohen or Mr. Trump. The district attorney’s office has commonly charged people with having made false business filings when a defendant committed fraud, such as insurance or tax fraud, and in the course of that scheme created a false business record to cover up the crime and avoid detection. As a new study co-written by one of us shows, precedents include charging a teacher for allegedly submitting a fake Covid-19 vaccination card to the New York City Department of Education and her school principal; an auto repair store ownerwho failed to file proper tax forms, resulting in more than $60,000 in unpaid taxes; and a woman who fraudulently obtained store credit at a Lord & Taylor and then used that credit to purchase several items before she left the store. While the analogy to Mr. Trump is imperfect, since paying hush money is not itself illegal, in his case the false legal fee records appear to have furthered and covered up New York State tax fraud (the false Cohen tax filings) and the failure to report Trump campaign contributions. Do such potential crimes have potential defenses that will be raised and litigated by Mr. Trump if he is charged? Surely. But such charges are not outside the norm and are well within what is required by the rule of law. In short, it is Mr. Trump who is asking for special treatment. But his former job does not and should not immunize him from the accountability that would be sought for anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted March 23, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted March 23, 2023 33 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said: I think it will be if it is their guy who is in the dock. Be careful what you ask for. As Beria famously said, "Show me the man and I will show you the crime!". OK, You've convinced me. Trump should be let off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 1 hour ago, MakemineVanilla said: I think it will be if it is their guy who is in the dock. Be careful what you ask for I expect you will find angry partisans on opposing sides of any argument. I would wager though that the majority of people would agree with the statement "if a politician breaks the law then the law should be able to hold them to account for it", irrespective of their political leanings. Rather than whatever "politicians should be above the law as long as they're on my side" thing you're suggesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 3 minutes ago, ml1dch said: I expect you will find angry partisans on opposing sides of any argument. I would wager though that the majority of people would agree with the statement "if a politician breaks the law then the law should be able to hold them to account for it", irrespective of their political leanings. Rather than whatever "politicians should be above the law as long as they're on my side" thing you're suggesting. What people say they believe and how they actually behave, are usually very different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seat68 Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 43 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said: What people say they believe and how they actually behave, are usually very different. Your posts always read like Stewart Lee playing Jesus 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Seat68 said: Your posts always read like Stewart Lee playing Jesus Definitely not his best work - I like his bits about ET as a Princess Di tribute, his Braveheart thing in Scotland, and his thing about Harry Potter. But let's get back on topic before I get a bollocking. Edited March 23, 2023 by MakemineVanilla 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post nick76 Posted March 25, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted March 25, 2023 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Zen Posted March 25, 2023 Share Posted March 25, 2023 I swear Jon Stewart is one of the sharpest minds of our day. His command of rhetoric is like a modern day Cicero. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted March 30, 2023 Author Share Posted March 30, 2023 Manhattan grand jury votes to indict Trump. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted March 30, 2023 Share Posted March 30, 2023 It's quite a pivotal moment - if you don't send him down you make him more powerful - I bloody hope they know what they are doing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAuthority Posted March 31, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted March 31, 2023 5 hours ago, Jareth said: It's quite a pivotal moment - if you don't send him down you make him more powerful - I bloody hope they know what they are doing. It would be much smarter to go after over one of his more serious crimes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted March 31, 2023 Share Posted March 31, 2023 Can't buy this kind of exposure. Will be great for his person cult. When he skates for this he can use it to point at in the more serious cases coming up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted March 31, 2023 Share Posted March 31, 2023 The trouble is if he gets off on this (and it sounds like the case is not the strongest, relying on Cohan to be their witness) then the justice system will become ‘the boy who cried wolf’ when he’s charged with a more serious crime. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAuthority Posted March 31, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted March 31, 2023 Just now, LondonLax said: The trouble is if he gets off on this (and it sounds like the case is not the strongest, relying on Cohan to be their witness) then the justice system will become ‘the boy who cried wolf’ when he’s charged with a more serious crime. Cohen is a shoddy individual. They won't ever dispel Trump's myth and his influence with 1 or 2 witnesses of dubious character. They need a tsunami of witnesses and evidence otherwise he'll manipulate the attention like PT Barnum and strengthen his lies about the deep state. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted March 31, 2023 Share Posted March 31, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, TheAuthority said: It would be much smarter to go after over one of his more serious crimes. Not sure I agree. Go after crimes you can guarantee conviction because if you miss, you embolden him. A crime is still a crime but it’s obviously harder to convict a former President than a normal Joe because of the circus and influence around him. The first indictment has to be a slam dunk then there is time to go after other crimes. Miss the first one and the others will be thrown out the window because it will be too hard in this environment. Plus this is over 30 charges, this is more than just hush money payment, it will be a quite an extension of that so this would be classed as serious crime(s). The MAGA narrative will be this is a crime of paying a pornstar off but given it’s 30+ charges it’s going to be a lot more than that and it will be interesting to see what all the charges will be next Tuesday when they are read out. Edited March 31, 2023 by nick76 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted March 31, 2023 Share Posted March 31, 2023 12 minutes ago, sne said: Can't buy this kind of exposure. Will be great for his person cult. When he skates for this he can use it to point at in the more serious cases coming up. Yeah it works for his base but moderate republicans and the average Joe aren’t going to like him for it. Not everybody on the right is extreme and the same on the left, the minority on both sides have such a loud voice in society but that will only get you so far. If he skates it will embolden him and his base, if he doesn’t skate then who knows… I agree if he skates he’ll use it against more serious cases but I assume this will takes a long time to go through the courts so I would expect the other charges from other DA’s and DOJ will come down well before this case is concluded. He’s going to be battling many fronts most likely at the same time because how long the legal system takes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted March 31, 2023 Share Posted March 31, 2023 20 minutes ago, LondonLax said: The trouble is if he gets off on this (and it sounds like the case is not the strongest, relying on Cohan to be their witness) then the justice system will become ‘the boy who cried wolf’ when he’s charged with a more serious crime. But it’s not just Cohen, if it was I would agree. It seems the witnesses and documented evidence is huge and given the number of charges which I believe is 30 or more, I don’t think they’d indict if it was just Cohen and just a bit of evidence. I think you maybe underestimating the strength of the case they have and this is the Manhattan DA’s office of all DA’s. Plus Trump doesn’t seem to have the best lawyers…you have one of the best DA office’s in their own back yard knowing how significant this is and have been preparing for such a long time and convinced a grand jury vs Trump’s second rate lawyers because nobody else would work with him, not as as familiar with these laws and only just finding out what he’s been indicted for….Trump is massively on the back foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted March 31, 2023 Share Posted March 31, 2023 (edited) Crazy what Trump is alleged to have done but this case could be the thing that sends him down… Edited March 31, 2023 by nick76 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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