U.S. Politics

[StefanAVFC]

15 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

Patching up relationships with an influential  world leader ... terrible way for a future president to behave 

That's total nonsense.

The president elect should not be publicly praising the leader of a nation that the current president rightfully sanctioned. On Twitter of all places. Also, Paul Ryan (his own house speaker) has said that the sanctions are warranted. He's not only in opposition with the current president but also with his own party. That is totally mental. It's Trump choosing to side with Russia against the current President, influential republican, FBI, CIA etc. This is not normal. The worst thing is, he pinned the tweet meaning that when you go on his profile, the first thing you'll always see is him praising Putin. (he later unpinned it, but it was still done)

We both know that this is not simply "Patching up relationships with an influential  world leader", that's an absurd opinion to hold. You're dismissing it as a totally normal action.

He's simply putting his own interests ahead of the country. And people are okay with that and normalising it with ridiculous responses like yours.

And what the hell does this even mean?

And what about this Tony?

 

Edited December 31, 2016 by StefanAVFC

[StefanAVFC]

Here's a good article about it. Does a far better job of explaining than I can.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2016/12/30/the-trump-camps-spin-on-russian-interference-is-falling-apart/?utm_term=.a71f9dc793a6

Quote

Consider the buffoonishly weak response of two of his top advisers to the news of the last 24 hours. Yesterday, the Obama administration slapped new sanctions and other penalties on Russia over its possible interference, moves that The Post characterized as “the most far-reaching U.S. response to Russian activities since the end of the Cold War.”

This prompted senior Trump transition adviser Kellyanne Conway to go on CNN and argue that Obama’s measures were designed to “box in” the Trump administration by forcing them to make a tough choice later on whether to continue those retaliatory measures (which Putin seems to be betting against happening). Conway added that Obama might be playing “politics” and argued that he was imperiling the peaceful transfer of presidential power.

It is probably true that the Obama administration is trying to “box in” Trump on this matter. But how is this notion helpful to Trump? All it really means is that Obama is trying to get Trump to take the allegations of Russian interference into our election seriously, which he does not want to do. In arguing that Obama is playing politics and might be imperiling a smooth transition, Conway implicitly admitted that the Trump camp does not see the possibility of Russian interference in our election as something the two parties should be united against. This only makes Trump’s position look more absurdly nonchalant.

The bolded is ridiculously important. This isn't a party v party issue. This is an America vs Russia issue. And Trump is very publicly siding with Russia against the opposition. (and some of his own party)

[tonyh29]

The president elect or president shouldn't be commenting on Twitter full stop but that's by the by

you're letting your hatred for all things Trump cloud your thinking , This article from the New York Times sums it up better than I can so I'll let them do it for me 

 

WASHINGTON — President-elect Donald J. Trump, who has pledged to reset relations with Russia, may have been tossed a lifeline by President Vladimir V. Putin on Friday. The Russian leader, skilled at keeping several steps ahead of his adversaries, announced that he would not retaliate in kind against the Obama administration for imposing new sanctions and expelling Russian diplomats from the United States.

That clears the way for Mr. Trump and Mr. Putin to declare that they are starting anew — just what both men have publicly called for.

more on the full article

[tonyh29]

Spooky we both used pretty much the same phrase simultaneously ....

[StefanAVFC]

1 minute ago, tonyh29 said:

you're letting your hatred for all things Trump cloud your thinking

I'm really not. Read above. Trump has turned this into a Putin/Trump vs Obama/Dems/key GOP (basically the US) issue. How can you not see how that is batshit insane? 

We're so fundamentally far apart here, I'm walking away.

Utter madness justifying his comments.

[maqroll]

Trump is walking a tightrope right now, getting perilously close to treason territory.

[StefanAVFC]

2 minutes ago, maqroll said:

Trump is walking a tightrope right now, getting perilously close to treason territory.

Nah he's just "patching up relationships with an influential world leader" 

[tonyh29]

why it's like you didn't even read the article I linked to , talk about head in the sand 

 

[maqroll]

Unfortunately, the Democrats have no balls, and won't take this opportunity to investigate what is clearly a troublesome situation. 

[StefanAVFC]

3 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

why it's like you didn't even read the article I linked to , talk about head in the sand 

 

Same with yours and mine.

He's clearly siding with Putin against his own country. And you accuse me of having my head in the sand 

Edited December 31, 2016 by StefanAVFC

[tonyh29]

7 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

How can you not see how that is batshit insane? 

We're so fundamentally far apart here, I'm walking away.

Utter madness justifying his comments.

because I'm looking at it without agenda perhaps ? 

[StefanAVFC]

1 minute ago, tonyh29 said:

because I'm looking at it without agenda perhaps ? 

Of course you are 

What have you actually said here?

All you've said is that I have an agenda and that all he is doing is patching up relations with another world leader.

Honestly, if that's all you think Trump is doing here, then well. I don't know what else I can say.

Fundamentally, he is siding with Putin against Obama/Dems/high-ranked GOP/FBI/CIA yet I'm the one who has an agenda? 

Total nonsense.

Edited December 31, 2016 by StefanAVFC

[StefanAVFC]

This isn't a case of right v left or dems v GOP.

This is America v Russia. And Trump (The president elect in power in 3 weeks) has very publicly sided with Russia.

And you don't see a problem with it.

Mental.

[maqroll]

The CIA and FBI have both stated that Russia hacked the DNC and have conducted espionage out of compounds on US soil, very serious crimes against a sovereign state. The fact that Trump is publicly refuting US intelligence findings and tweeting encouraging statements to Putin is absolutely "unpresidented", to use Trump's own spelling. (He's like, a smart guy, you know). So we have an incoming president who is acquiescing to and publicly supporting an enemy state that has just committed the most egregious political cyber attack ever conducted against the United States. Mind blowing, and deeply troubling. I'm all for improving relations with Russia, but the way Trump is going about it is nothing short of scandalous, and very likely criminal.

 

[Chindie]

He has too many business interests in Russia to openly criticise them.

Sorry, 'had' too many, because he's going to completely sever those business ties.

Snigger.

[Awol]

If you dig a little deeper into the thinking of key people around Trump like Gen. Flynn then what's going on starts to make a bit more sense. 

The people coming in with the new Administration are looking to fundamentally reorient US foreign policy in a dramatic break with the Washington consensus.

The Establishment's obsession with Iran and undermining Russia has led to them making common cause with the direct descendents of the people who attacked them on 9/11.

You only have to look at the Middle East to see the truth of that, whether it's the CIA advocating support for AQ affiliates in Syria, or facilitating the Saudi slaughter of civilians in pursuit of a non-existent Iranian bogeyman in Yemen. 

It's often been noted here that this is completely mad and inexplicable in the context of a coherent policy. 

Simultaneously Washington has encouraged the EU to push itself hard up against the borders of Russia, in the full knowledge it would provoke conflict with Moscow. This is raw geo-strategic competition based on preventing the emergence of any international systems or structures that may be outside of US control (in this case the Russian plan for a Eurasian Union to rival the EU) with the long term aim of overturning the Putin regime in Moscow.

Enter a new team in the White House that recognizes the idiocy of the US policy towards radical Islam and the dangers inherent in a needlessly aggressive policy towards Russia - given their history it would be unwise to assume an alternative would be a fluffy, Western facing democrat. 

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Russia is guilty of the DNC hack (as for the spying element all sides do that constantly anyway) precisely because they perceive themselves as being involved in a conflict already in which cyber is simply one non-kinetic vector of attack, like propaganda and disinformation (so called fake news). Again this is something all major countries engage in pretty much constantly. 

If a key plank of Trump's foreign policy will be attempting to de-escalate this growing clash with Russia then it makes sense to view Washington as a competition between internal factions, those wishing to continue the policies described above and the Trump team planning to do the opposite. 

It makes sense for the Obama (read Establishment) faction to lay as many land mines as possible on the way out of the door, to make that reorientation as politically difficult as possible.

Putin knows this so is not retaliating yet in order to give this potential re-set a chance. Both sides will be waiting for the big face to face to see whether they can do business with each other and eventually strike a grand bargain. That may not work but clearly factions on both sides think it's worth a try. 

[blandy]

I liked your post AWOL, but I think there are other aspects.

Russia, China, USA, even little old UK and many others indulge in hacking, influencing,stealing, spying....

I strongly suspect Russia will have way more dirt on Trump than they have on Clinton. I mean the Clinton stuff - without researching, I bet no one could even say what the wiki leaks email mail trove actually said about her. The actual hacked emails (content) played no problem in the result. The thing that did was merely the story that wiki leaks had a pile "dirt" ( even though it wasn't anything of any significance). The narrative of Trump re "crooked hillary" was reinforced. It was clever, targeted, smart, Russian meddling.

I think Russia has sussed that Trump is a useful idiot and they will use his flaws to their advantage. They're playing him. In some ways he's like putin. They both have a narrative of making their country great again, they are both genuinely crooks, their interest being money and ego and power.

Ultimately the difference is that while Trump is quite canny at the kind of media attacking of domestic critics and rivals, he's an utter novice compared to putin. Trumps wilder fantasies will be restrained by the US system. Putin has no such constraints. He'll have people murdered, tortured, locked up and all the rest of it. He'll eat Trump for breakfast. He's playing him and his ego like a fiddle.

[tonyh29]

4 hours ago, Awol said:

If you dig a little deeper into the thinking of key people around Trump like Gen. Flynn then what's going on starts to make a bit more sense. 

The people coming in with the new Administration are looking to fundamentally reorient US foreign policy in a dramatic break with the Washington consensus.

The Establishment's obsession with Iran and undermining Russia has led to them making common cause with the direct descendents of the people who attacked them on 9/11.

You only have to look at the Middle East to see the truth of that, whether it's the CIA advocating support for AQ affiliates in Syria, or facilitating the Saudi slaughter of civilians in pursuit of a non-existent Iranian bogeyman in Yemen. 

It's often been noted here that this is completely mad and inexplicable in the context of a coherent policy. 

Simultaneously Washington has encouraged the EU to push itself hard up against the borders of Russia, in the full knowledge it would provoke conflict with Moscow. This is raw geo-strategic competition based on preventing the emergence of any international systems or structures that may be outside of US control (in this case the Russian plan for a Eurasian Union to rival the EU) with the long term aim of overturning the Putin regime in Moscow.

Enter a new team in the White House that recognizes the idiocy of the US policy towards radical Islam and the dangers inherent in a needlessly aggressive policy towards Russia - given their history it would be unwise to assume an alternative would be a fluffy, Western facing democrat. 

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Russia is guilty of the DNC hack (as for the spying element all sides do that constantly anyway) precisely because they perceive themselves as being involved in a conflict already in which cyber is simply one non-kinetic vector of attack, like propaganda and disinformation (so called fake news). Again this is something all major countries engage in pretty much constantly. 

If a key plank of Trump's foreign policy will be attempting to de-escalate this growing clash with Russia then it makes sense to view Washington as a competition between internal factions, those wishing to continue the policies described above and the Trump team planning to do the opposite. 

It makes sense for the Obama (read Establishment) faction to lay as many land mines as possible on the way out of the door, to make that reorientation as politically difficult as possible.

Putin knows this so is not retaliating yet in order to give this potential re-set a chance. Both sides will be waiting for the big face to face to see whether they can do business with each other and eventually strike a grand bargain. That may not work but clearly factions on both sides think it's worth a try. 

Well put....Meet you for straight jacket fitting  right after our electro shock treatment ?

 

[tonyh29]

13 minutes ago, blandy said:

The hcked emails (content) played no problem in the result. The thing that did was merely the story that wiki leaks had a pile "dirt" ( even though it wasn't anything of any significance). The narrative of Trump re "crooked hillary" was reinforced. It was clever, targeted, smart, Russian meddling.

Wasn't it the Feds announcing they were going to re-investigate Clintons private mail server 2 weeks before the election that did the real damage rather than Podesta falling for a phishing scam ?

The DNC links were in June ( July ?) Clinton to an extent had ridden both of these events out , looked to be on the home stretch  and then someone conveniently brought the matter back to light again ...

 

 

[blandy]

Just now, tonyh29 said:

Wasn't it the Feds announcing they were going to re-investigate Clintons private mail server 2 weeks before the election that did the real damage rather than Podesta falling for a phishing scam ?

I think so. I wonder what dirt caused the FBI man to do it?  It was at best partisan. Clinton was a terrible candidate, but the FBI guy went outside of his boundaries.