U.S. Politics

[StefanAVFC]

I mentioned critical thinking and how I believe it needs to be taught as a core subject in schools. I was told about a fantastic example of it by the missus today.

She had an exam today. Everything that she had been taught across the module since week 1. The lecturer turns around at the end of the exam and gives them all the lowest pass available. He informs them that he told them something incorrect in the first week, and nobody questioned it. Therefore they went with that incorrect info and wrote an exam with it. He told them they should have questioned him, especially as they learned more info throughout the course. In today's lecture, the whole class were questioning him on everything and it promoted healthy debate and discussion. 

A ridiculously simple method which has got them healthily questioning his lectures now, and they'll probably take that lesson into later life.

Great stuff.

[peterms]

2 hours ago, Awol said:

For iScotland there was no clarity at all on what currency would be used, the potential relationship with the EU, the relationship with rUK, how defence would work or how any of it was going to be paid for. By way of complexity Brexit was a comparatively simple matter.

Instead of low information Scottish voters we had voters making a choice in an information vacuum.. and yet the referendum went forward and there was no question the result would be respected, or that the Scottish public were both qualified and entitled to make it.

I agree with you that emotion played a strong factor but don't see why that's a problem? Life is a lived emotional experience not a sterile balance sheet so people's feelings matter greatly. 

That's not correct.  The currency proposition was a mess - deliberate obfuscation, in my view.  The proposed relationship with the EU was to be a member, and the doubt was about whether that could be achieved by continuing membership, or by inheriting the UK's membership if it left, or by a fresh application; but the "yes" pitch was for EU membership however achieved.  The relationship with rUK was to be negotiated around things like share of assets/share of debts, minimising border controls and so on, and the outcome couldn't be stated before the negotiation, but the goals and the subject of negotiation were not a secret.  Defence was to be a more minimal arrangement, not at the level of the 1973 Finnish proposal to leave a message on the MoD answerphone saying "We surrender" in Russian, but scaled down from UK pretensions.  How it was to be paid for was a combination of acquired assets from the UK breakup, oil and gas revenues (oops), and growth generated by different economic policies.

Some of those things were wrong, overstated, or uncertain, but they stand as a beacon of clarity compared to what we have been told even now about what will happen under Brexit.

The problem with making a decision of that magnitude on the basis of emotion is it's not a great way to decide.  It's like buying a house on the basis of the colour of the front door, and then wondering why you've ended up in a bungalow on the outskirts of Warrington.

[maqroll]

14 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

I mentioned critical thinking and how I believe it needs to be taught as a core subject in schools. I was told about a fantastic example of it by the missus today.

She had an exam today. Everything that she had been taught across the module since week 1. The lecturer turns around at the end of the exam and gives them all the lowest pass available. He informs them that he told them something incorrect in the first week, and nobody questioned it. Therefore they went with that incorrect info and wrote an exam with it. He told them they should have questioned him, especially as they learned more info throughout the course. In today's lecture, the whole class were questioning him on everything and it promoted healthy debate and discussion. 

A ridiculously simple method which has got them healthily questioning his lectures now, and they'll probably take that lesson into later life.

Great stuff.

Nice one. I've known a few people over the years taking college courses who will "switch" into professor-speak, essentially repeating what they heard in class verbatim, as if it was indisputable truth. Painful to listen to, especially since they are fairly smart people. But their critical thinking skills are lacking, at least when it comes to what they're taught in university...but that's when critical thinking is best applied. 

[Keyblade]

36 minutes ago, peterms said:

I didn't realise Mr Farage was totally colourblind.

His wife must be as well, to let him out like that.

I'm colourblind and I find his outfit offensive. Is that a pink shirt? This was him trying to figure out how to colour code his outfit.

[Xann]

Quote

Some years ago, public intellectual Noam Chomsky warned that the political climate in the US was ripe for the rise of an authoritarian figure. Now, he shares his thoughts on the aftermath of this election, the moribund state of the US political system and why Trump is a real threat to the world and the planet in general.

Truth-Out

Read Chomsky.

[TheStagMan]

59 minutes ago, Awol said:

By attempting to insert himself as some kind of gate keeper between the new US Administration & the U.K. Government he is now actively harming the national interest and needs to wind his neck in immediately.

Who says he has been doing that? He himself has distanced himself from any such role. He was part of Trumps campaign and he is being thanked for that by Trump.

Actually, it is a good thing that there is someone in UK politics that he gets on with. That puts us one step above most countries, even if it is just Trump having a soft spot for the UK. 

The phrase Slimy little toad I would reserve for characters like Tim Farron.

[Seat68]

56 minutes ago, TheStagMan said:

Who says he has been doing that? He himself has distanced himself from any such role. He was part of Trumps campaign and he is being thanked for that by Trump.

Actually, it is a good thing that there is someone in UK politics that he gets on with. That puts us one step above most countries, even if it is just Trump having a soft spot for the UK. 

The phrase Slimy little toad I would reserve for characters like Tim Farron.

You think Tim Farron, a non entity but with a pretty good voting record is a slimy little toad but not Farage?

[TheStagMan]

26 minutes ago, Seat68 said:

You think Tim Farron, a non entity but with a pretty good voting record is a slimy little toad but not Farage?

Yes. Someone who's stated objective is to ignore the referendum result and do what he wants, in the hope of clawing power back for his disgraced party. A man with no morals or qualms about doing anything necessary to get into some position of power.

So yes, slimy little toad.

As for Farage, I get people don't like him, but a lot of the criticism he receives is either totally unjustified or much harsher than it would be if it were someone else doing the same thing. Imagine if Corbyn was the one meeting with Trump because he had a prior relationship with him? Forget the "no, he wouldn't do that" response and imagine that he did - would he get the same treatment?

[StefanAVFC]

1 minute ago, TheStagMan said:

Yes. Someone who's stated objective is to ignore the referendum result and do what he wants, in the hope of clawing power back for his disgraced party. A man with no morals or qualms about doing anything necessary to get into some position of power.

It's amazing how you can see things so differently. The above paragraph could have easily been written about Farage.

[Seat68]

Just now, TheStagMan said:

Yes. Someone who's stated objective is to ignore the referendum result and do what he wants, in the hope of clawing power back for his disgraced party. A man with no morals or qualms about doing anything necessary to get into some position of power.

So yes, slimy little toad.

As for Farage, I get people don't like him, but a lot of the criticism he receives is either totally unjustified or much harsher than it would be if it were someone else doing the same thing. Imagine if Corbyn was the one meeting with Trump because he had a prior relationship with him? Forget the "no, he wouldn't do that" response and imagine that he did - would he get the same treatment?

So I have to forget that it would not happen, and imagine that the impossible would happen. In that case I would be pretty pissed off with him and his pink unicorn (my imagination is fairly vivid). That aside, its not just Farage meeting with Trump, its Farage as a person, what he says and what he stands for, and that bastard pink unicorn.

[TheStagMan]

1 minute ago, StefanAVFC said:

It's amazing how you can see things so differently. The above paragraph could have easily been written about Farage.

You are amazed that some people may not see Farage as the anti-Christ? Anyway, not sure when UKIP became a disgraced party like the Lib Dems (other than people who never liked them in the first place - disliking or disagreeing with someone's views does not make them a disgrace) - whereas publishing manifesto objectives and then completely ignoring them does. (we will see if this happens to Trump)

I'm not saying that everything Farage does is great, far from it, but it is fashionable to have a pop at him, deserved or not - frankly the hating is a bit embarrassing

[TheStagMan]

5 minutes ago, Seat68 said:

So I have to forget that it would not happen, and imagine that the impossible would happen. In that case I would be pretty pissed off with him and his pink unicorn (my imagination is fairly vivid). That aside, its not just Farage meeting with Trump, its Farage as a person, what he says and what he stands for, and that bastard pink unicorn.

OK, so having had you totally miss the point, let's try again. Awol responded that he was a slimy little toad because "By attempting to insert himself as some kind of gate keeper between the new US Administration & the U.K. Government he is now actively harming the national interest and needs to wind his neck in immediately."

The point I was making is other people who may have done the same in the circumstances would not get the same level of abuse or hatred sent their way.

 

Lets try something different then......

See the bit in bold - elaborate please. What is it that makes him a slimy little toad in your opinion (or that unicorn of yours)?

[Awol]

1 hour ago, TheStagMan said:

Who says he has been doing that? He himself has distanced himself from any such role. He was part of Trumps campaign and he is being thanked for that by Trump.

Actually, it is a good thing that there is someone in UK politics that he gets on with. That puts us one step above most countries, even if it is just Trump having a soft spot for the UK. 

The phrase Slimy little toad I would reserve for characters like Tim Farron.

He and his close team (Kassam & Banks) are putting it about that Nigel will act as introducer for the UK Government to Trump's team as he is the only one who knows them etc.

That may well be true but using this particular diplomatic relationship as a tool for self promotion (and let's be honest that's what he's doing) in the media is vulgar, undiplomatic grandstanding and distinctly un-British, ironically. 

I don't think he's a slimey toad & agree with you on Farron, but this bit of access has gone to his head and his behaviorist is detracting from the great work he did to get us out of the EU. 

[TheStagMan]

1 minute ago, Awol said:

He and his close team (Kassam & Banks) are putting it about that Nigel will act as introducer for the UK Government to Trump's team as he is the only one who knows them etc.

That may well be true but using this particular diplomatic relationship as a tool for self promotion (and let's be honest that's what he's doing) in the media is vulgar, undiplomatic grandstanding and distinctly un-British, ironically. 

I don't think he's a slimey toad & agree with you on Farron, but this bit of access has gone to his head and his behaviorist is detracting from the great work he did to get us out of the EU. 

OK, I was not aware of that/have not seen it. If that is the case, I agree he should not be doing that and does need to wind his neck in. Just had a quick Google and cannot see anything, any chance of a link?

[Seat68]

OK, Farage, so he has positioned himself as the voice of the people to an overtly racist, homophobic, misogynist. He has chosen to rub shoulders with this man, even though he, Farage, has no power and does not represent us, the UK in parliament, it is therefore only for his own self advancement. 

Why I dislike him, prior to this and why I despise him and all he and his party stand for is that his party breaths racism, they dress it up as some moral crusade to rid us from the clutches of that pesky common fisheries policy or to bring back powerful hoovers when its racism. Thats what it always boils down to. People are attracted to UKIP for policies that are racist. Not all, but most.

I despise him for taking a wage and not turning up to work, for claiming expenses, just because he can, for voting for anything that opposes Europe even if it goes against the will of all free thinking people, just to oppose Europe.

I despise him for brushing off xenophobia, racism, sexism, holocaust denial within his party, for employing a breitbart "journalist", his tax avoidance, his very being offends me.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Seat68
pad it out, correct some spelling.

[StefanAVFC]

11 minutes ago, TheStagMan said:

You are amazed that some people may not see Farage as the anti-Christ?

Not close. i was simply commenting that the paragraph you wrote could easily be said about Farage. Which is exactly what I wrote.

Quote

Someone who's stated objective is to ignore the referendum result and do what he wants,

The same as Nigel 'I'll ignore a 52-48 remain win and demand a 2nd ref" Farage then?

[Awol]

1 minute ago, TheStagMan said:

OK, I was not aware of that/have not seen it. If that is the case, I agree he should not be doing that and does need to wind his neck in. Just had a quick Google and cannot see anything, any chance of a link?

Can't post links from my phone without getting in trouble but it's all over print media that he's been offering his services to Downing St. Try googling Farage & mend fences, that will throw up a few results.

[TrentVilla]

5 hours ago, peterms said:

In the case of the Scottish referendum, people had a reasonable rough idea of what independence might look like, though with a very big gap about what the currency arrangements would be, and with very misleading projections about future income from oil.  I don't think many felt they had no idea at all of what independence would look like or feel like.

With Brexit, it seems even the government have not the slightest idea of what it will entail.  People generally seem to have voted based on some combination of vague ideas like "taking back control", or "restoring sovereignty", or perhaps some general resentment at perceived failings of the EU, or possibly misleading information like the £350m nonsense.

In both cases, perhaps a strong motivating factor was emotional rather than rational, so maybe for many people better information wouldn't have made much difference.  For many it would, and holding a referendum without access to even the most basic information seems to me like a very poor way to approach such an issue. 

In the case of the Scotland referendum I'm not sure people did have a 'reasonable enough idea' which is inpart why we have the outcome we did.

There were seriously flaws in the leave campaign especially around their economic plans which were almost entirely based upon oil prices which subsequently collapsed. There were also some farsical claims such as Scotland wouldn't take part of the national debt but would keep national assets etc.

I do though agree on the general point about referendums.

[Seat68]

[TheStagMan]

1 minute ago, Seat68 said:

OK, Farage, so he has positioned himself as the voice of the people to an overtly racist, homophobic, misogynist. He has chosen to rub shoulder with this man, even though he has no power and does not represent us in parliament, it is therefore only for self advancement. 

Why I dislike him prior to this and why I despise him and all he stands for is that his party breaths racism, they dress it up as some moral crusade to rid us from the clutches of that pesky common fisheries policy when its racism. 

I despise him for taking a wage and not turning up to work, for claiming money just because he can, for voting for anything that opposes europe even if it goes against the will of all free thinking people, just to oppose europe. 

I despise him for brushing off xenophobia, racism, sexism, holocaust denial within his party, for employing a breitbart "journalist", his tax avoidance, his very being offends me.

Fairly blinkered view. Most of what you say there is wrong.

Talking about immigration is not racist, talking about the fisheries policy in particular is not racist

Talking about wanting out of Europe is not xenophobic

Considering UKIP to be all the things you have just said is particularly offensive. You have no idea what you are talking about frankly. And if that is your opinion then it is not really worth talking to you about it.

 

I accept that UKIP has attracted some less than desirable characters in the past, but the party has worked to remove them, and to make the sweeping statements that you have just made is just as bigoted and blinkered as you are accusing them of being. Frankly, your attitude here disgusts me.

I am not going to continue this conversation as it is pretty clear where your thoughts are, and I don't want to see this thread closed.