snowychap Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Well they lied to join that controlled monetary system. Very easy to blame the big bad banks. Like, erm, Goldman Sachs? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoelVilla Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Well they lied to join that controlled monetary system. Very easy to blame the big bad banks. Like, erm, Goldman Sachs? Did they implement the pension system? Did they avoid to collect taxes from small businesses? No it was not them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mockingbird_franklin Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 (edited) Greek politicians voted to govern by the greek people. That is how our western democracies work. Should I exclude the greeks who never voted? Maybe I should to be absolutely correct but that seems to much to write. But I do it now; all young greek people and those who never voted excluded in what I wrote before. Well that's a start on the right road. but you have to forgive me my difficult nature here, whilst I accept most religions arn't inherently bad, they tend to have some very questionable believers and beliefs, I include statism in my broad sweeping statement about religions of course Edited June 29, 2015 by mockingbird_franklin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mockingbird_franklin Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 It's a very difficult situation. Principle will get you poverty. Austerity on its own doesn't work. Austerity is working perfectly as it is supposed to do, the error is believing it's meant to balance the books and pay off debt. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Did they implement the pension system? Did they avoid to collect taxes from small businesses? No it was not them.What has that got to do with an accusation of lying to join the Eurozone?On that subject, their admission to the Eurozone was as a result of the Commission adopting the convergence report 2000 compiled by the ECB, wasn't it?I mean the European Central Bank did look in to the Greek figures didn't they? They didn't just accept that during the last two years Greece has achieved striking progress towards convergence*, did they?Or were those in the Eurozone (and in charge of it) willing to accept everything and not question anything in order to expand it?(I know, I know that the Goldman Sachs thing was after they joined)*Quote taken from this page - EC press release May 2000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meath_Villan Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 yer man seems to have the backing of his people with the turnout tonight on the streets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eames Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Of course he has.....he's promised them everything they want to hear. Don't worry Stelios, you can still retire at 50 from you public sector non job and we'll pension you off until death. Oh Hi Stavros.....nah...don't worry about that tax bill mate I know you meant to pay. The current government got elected on the basis that they will make it all better and there would be no more pain. It was a fairy tale.....and its not deliverable. The rest of the EU won't prop up such a basket whilst barely growing themselves. Especially whilst Britain grows as the poster boy for spending cuts. It's going to go horribly horribly wrong in Athens. Wrong government at the wrong time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Zen Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Yeah, except that's just not the case at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 The Greek situation is fascinating, in that it is not clear what it is really about but it does seem safe to assume that it is not quite what the media are saying it is. People on the left are saying that it is not about repaying the debt, it is actually about controlling what sort of government a member of the EU is allowed and that the demands and stipulations neither serve the debtors or the creditors. The present Greek government which is universally described as 'left wing' is far less radical than most of the social democratic governments which emerged throughout Europe after the war, but it is being presented as something extreme, which it is not. I'm told that the party which presided over the corruption and borrowing was the New Democrats and it is the New Democrats (centre-right) which the ECB and the IMF want in power. What the left are saying is that Europe are imposing a uniform system across the community, at the behest of big capital and international finance, and no country should be allowed to demur. As ever the UK does not demur, we lead the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eames Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Yeah, except that's just not the case at all. It really is hyperbole aside of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Zen Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Are you sure you provided the link you intended to? I only got a press release from the EU that, in terms of actual content, might as well have been empty. Look up Krugman's or Stiegliz' (NY Times and the Grauniad respectively) comments on the current situation. You'd vote 'no' if you were Greek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Yes, I don't think that can have been the link that was intended. It doesn't say anything at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eames Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Are you sure you provided the link you intended to? I only got a press release from the EU that, in terms of actual content, might as well have been empty. Look up Krugman's or Stiegliz' (NY Times and the Grauniad respectively) comments on the current situation. You'd vote 'no' if you were Greek. Sorry - was meant to be the PDF at the bottom of that page on the link - click that won't let me link it direct for some reason. Agree the press release is empty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) Are you sure you provided the link you intended to? I only got a press release from the EU that, in terms of actual content, might as well have been empty. Look up Krugman's or Stiegliz' (NY Times and the Grauniad respectively) comments on the current situation. You'd vote 'no' if you were Greek. Sorry - was meant to be the PDF at the bottom of that page on the link - click that won't let me link it direct for some reason. Agree the press release is empty. A great source, thanks! Funny how our media assiduously avoid bothering us with facts, Some of the proposals definitely seem harsh, like 13% VAT on food. Compulsory privatisation of the state electricity company - seems ideologically driven. As do several demands to open up several Greek sectors for big capital. 'Create strong disincentives to early retirement' = force people to work longer. Edited June 30, 2015 by MakemineVanilla 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eames Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) Are you sure you provided the link you intended to? I only got a press release from the EU that, in terms of actual content, might as well have been empty. Look up Krugman's or Stiegliz' (NY Times and the Grauniad respectively) comments on the current situation. You'd vote 'no' if you were Greek. Sorry - was meant to be the PDF at the bottom of that page on the link - click that won't let me link it direct for some reason. Agree the press release is empty. A great source, thanks! Funny how our media assiduously avoid bothering us with facts, Some of the proposals definitely seem harsh, like 13% VAT on food. Some of the policies proposed are sensible..... reduction in tax loop holes/dodges, sensible retirement age etc. Some are OTT. IMO the Greek government have overestimated the impact of them leaving the Euro. Most leaders now seemingly prepared to call Tsipras' bluff I would imagine some sort of deal will get done. Edited June 30, 2015 by Eames Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islingtonclaret Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I don't see how the banking sector dishing out and refloating millions of pounds of debt that was extremely high risk due to Greece being too deep in the whole means the blame falls exclusively at their feet. Rather more subsequent Governments of Greece pretending they had a booming economy in 2004 because of financial controls not designed for their economy, then going absolutely mental with spending - especially kicked off by the Olympics which has seemingly brought them nothing in return. Banks short-sightedness due to inevitable greed is always going to be a given with human nature, but I think the moral of this disaster is don't spend money you don't have when there is absolutely northing wrong with your economy at the beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Are you sure you provided the link you intended to? I only got a press release from the EU that, in terms of actual content, might as well have been empty. Look up Krugman's or Stiegliz' (NY Times and the Grauniad respectively) comments on the current situation. You'd vote 'no' if you were Greek. Sorry - was meant to be the PDF at the bottom of that page on the link - click that won't let me link it direct for some reason. Agree the press release is empty. A great source, thanks! Funny how our media assiduously avoid bothering us with facts, Some of the proposals definitely seem harsh, like 13% VAT on food. Some of the policies proposed are sensible..... reduction in tax loop holes/dodges, sensible retirement age etc. Some are OTT. IMO the Greek government have overestimated the impact of them leaving the Euro. Most leaders now seemingly prepared to call Tsipras' bluff I would imagine some sort of deal will get done. That's very much going to depend on the outcome of the referendum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I don't see how the banking sector dishing out and refloating millions of pounds of debt that was extremely high risk due to Greece being too deep in the whole means the blame falls exclusively at their feet. Rather more subsequent Governments of Greece pretending they had a booming economy in 2004 because of financial controls not designed for their economy, then going absolutely mental with spending - especially kicked off by the Olympics which has seemingly brought them nothing in return. Banks short-sightedness due to inevitable greed is always going to be a given with human nature, but I think the moral of this disaster is don't spend money you don't have when there is absolutely northing wrong with your economy at the beginning. It is definitely about the 'moral hazard', which is that those who borrowed should pay back to ensure that all other subsequent borrowers don't feel free not to pay. But there is also a risk of moral hazard if those who loaned money recklessly and without due diligence are rewarded for that recklessness. The question is why lenders are expected not to be punished for their recklessness to avoid that particular moral hazard but borrowers are? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islingtonclaret Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I don't see how the banking sector dishing out and refloating millions of pounds of debt that was extremely high risk due to Greece being too deep in the whole means the blame falls exclusively at their feet. Rather more subsequent Governments of Greece pretending they had a booming economy in 2004 because of financial controls not designed for their economy, then going absolutely mental with spending - especially kicked off by the Olympics which has seemingly brought them nothing in return. Banks short-sightedness due to inevitable greed is always going to be a given with human nature, but I think the moral of this disaster is don't spend money you don't have when there is absolutely northing wrong with your economy at the beginning. It is definitely about the 'moral hazard', which is that those who borrowed should pay back to ensure that all other subsequent borrowers don't feel free not to pay. But there is also a risk of moral hazard if those who loaned money recklessly and without due diligence are rewarded for that recklessness. The question is why lenders are expected not to be punished for their recklessness to avoid that particular moral hazard but borrowers are? Well, quite, it's definately wrong on both sides of the coin. They shouldn't be dishing out money, Greece shouldn't have asked for it. We're all idiots, basically! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meath_Villan Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 looks like a deal has been done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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