Rugeley Villa Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 1 minute ago, bickster said: This path you are on? Why did it seemingly give way and make you fall down a mountain? I viewed that as a message or a sign from my higher power . I could relate to what happened straight away . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 34 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said: For me it’s not wrong no . Look up "Pascal's Wager" on Wiki - it always seems perfectly reasonable to me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 Anyway I’m going to bed people . Questions on a postcard for next time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted August 27 Administrator Share Posted August 27 Just now, Rugeley Villa said: Anyway I’m going to bed people . Questions on a postcard for next time So that you can answer with generalities and platitudes? When you don't understand that original sin wasn't a sin. When you think that blood sacrifice is a good thing? Even when nothing was sacrificed? Your misplaced arrogance from your faith means you can't even conceive that you've been misled about which is the bad guy is in the big story book. Pass (for now). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 6 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said: Look up "Pascal's Wager" on Wiki - it always seems perfectly reasonable to me. I’ve put this theory over to a work college not so long ago . I was unaware of Pascals Wager but yes it makes a lot of sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 2 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said: I was unaware of Pascals Wager but yes it makes a lot of sense. Only if you love your training wheels and put zero value on living a lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 7 minutes ago, limpid said: So that you can answer with generalities and platitudes? When you don't understand that original sin wasn't a sin. When you think that blood sacrifice is a good thing? Even when nothing was sacrificed? Your misplaced arrogance from your faith means you can't even conceive that you've been misled about which is the bad guy is in the big story book. Pass (for now). We are born to sin are we not? The thought process of sin often leads to actual sinning. What you mean nothing was sacrificed ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 39 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said: Because only my belief is important. If you tell me now I am wrong or you believe I’m wrong then that’s ok . Why is it so bad to believe in god ? Throughout the history of the world, the amount of atrocities that have been carried out in the name of some God or another are mind blowing. I think religion has a lot to answer for in regards how **** up and horrible the world can be at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 2 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said: We are born to sin are we not? What do you think the original sin was ... and here I proffer Genesis 2:17 and 3:22 as clues. Notice how it refers to "knowledge of". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 2 hours ago, fruitvilla said: What do you think the original sin was ... and here I proffer Genesis 2:17 and 3:22 as clues. Notice how it refers to "knowledge of". Morning Adam was the original sin ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 4 hours ago, Rugeley Villa said: Morning Adam was the original sin ? nope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MNVillan Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 6 hours ago, fruitvilla said: Only if you love your training wheels and put zero value on living a lie. That’s the point of the wager, is it not? That we do not know the existence of God is a lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MNVillan Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 7 hours ago, DCJonah said: It always annoys me when I see a sports star or musician talking about how god had a plan for them. If you truly believed God had a plan for you to become a successful millionaire than surely you also have to believe that God had a plan for children to be blown to bits in Gaza. Which is **** up. The concepts of predestination and free will are certainly interesting philosophical (which crosses over into theological) topics. I also find it hard to believe my God would create one human with the intent of making them a millionaire actor while creating another that he knows will live a short life in a war stricken area. It seems incompatible with the idea that all humans are created equal in the image of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 (edited) 44 minutes ago, MNVillan said: That’s the point of the wager, is it not? That we do not know the existence of God is a lie. Correct ... but it puts little (edit) value on living that lie. Living life in fear, passing on that fear to your kids and generations to come. The wager underestimates that cost. Also Pascal assumes an Abrahamic god. If I were to assume a god that punishes infinitely someone who is not honest with themselves in their beliefs then the wager falls flat. And while we are at it, Pascal studied what religion is the best of all religions. It turned out to be Catholicism. Pascal happened to be a Catholic. go figure. Edited August 28 by fruitvilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 10 minutes ago, MNVillan said: The concepts of predestination and free will are certainly interesting philosophical (which crosses over into theological) topics. I also find it hard to believe my God would create one human with the intent of making them a millionaire actor while creating another that he knows will live a short life in a war stricken area. It seems incompatible with the idea that all humans are created equal in the image of God. Depending on how literally we take the Bible. It does not say explicitly that humans are equal, and in fact the Abrahamic god caused painful childbirth for women. Does not sound like an equal opportunist to me. Also in the absence of free will, this salvation lark becomes a complete nonsense. The Bible is silent on the subject of free will, but it does talk often about choice, which is not free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MNVillan Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 9 minutes ago, fruitvilla said: Correct ... but it puts living value on living that lie. Living life in fear, passing on that fear to your kids and generations to come. The wager underestimates that cost. Also Pascal assumes an Abrahamic god. If I were to assume a god that punishes infinitely someone who is not honest with themselves in their beliefs then the wager falls flat. And while we are at it, Pascal studied what religion is the best of all religions. It turned out to be Catholicism. Pascal happened to be a Catholic. go figure. Yes, fair enough, I see what you were originally replying to and it makes sense. It’s merely a thought experiment anyway and everyone is free to set up their own parameters and make their own “wager” 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MNVillan Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 11 minutes ago, fruitvilla said: Depending on how literally we take the Bible. It does not say explicitly that humans are equal, and in fact the Abrahamic god caused painful childbirth for women. Does not sound like an equal opportunist to me. Also in the absence of free will, this salvation lark becomes a complete nonsense. The Bible is silent on the subject of free will, but it does talk often about choice, which is not free will. I am a Catholic and don’t take the Bible as literally as some others do. I do believe what the Church teaches. I do believe God creates all humans equal in his image, which is different from making them all identical. Each human life is as precious as every other. He does not make “lesser” humans with the plan of sending them off to die at a young age in Gaza (which I use as an example only because it was brought up previously in this thread). While the outcomes of each human’s life are different, the value of their life is no different in the eyes of God. Any difference in value of human life, in terms of one person being more important than another, has been ascribed by our human brains, not by God. The sole exception to this, in Catholic doctrine, would be Mary. I don’t have much to add to your second point about free will and salvation’s dependency on it, other than I believe in free will and also agree that salvation would be unnecessary without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 21 minutes ago, MNVillan said: I do believe God creates all humans equal in his image <snip>He does not make “lesser” humans with the plan ... I really don't know how to interpret this in that my late son had severe epilepsy and died at sixteen. But I agree it would be wise to treat people equitably to some degree. 26 minutes ago, MNVillan said: the value of their life is no different in the eyes of God. But their Earthly yoke does vary quite a bit. To me these hypothetical values are of little value to me. If you believe in free will, then you believe you are taking on god-like properties ... and here God gets worried and punishes us for thinking of ourselves as gods ... Gen 3:22 again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delboy54 Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 I personally do not believe in a god, but I dont have any issue with those that do. I get it that at times of stress people do look to reasons why and help from a supernatural god and get comfort from this. However when violence, suffering, terrorism or sexual coercion is carried out in the name of religion is when it becomes a concern. Why does a god allow incurable, painful cancers in children? Why did a god allow the killing of millions in the name of religion in war and torture? Where was a god in Belsen and Auschwitz concentration camps? So many more examples, but explained by the god botherers in the bland statement "God works in mysterious ways"......does he ****......... he doesnt exist! I see no distinction between the gods of Rome or Greece for example and the different versions of a god that many follow. Humanity will eventually outgrow the current version like they did with the older versions. I think that fundamentally everyone is scared that once you die there is nothing, you become the same state you were 150 years ago, I.e. you did not exist. Therefore to compensate for that people make up beliefs that if you give them your money they can guarantee you life after death and eternity of doing...... what? I just hope I see the Villa win the FA cup before I snuff it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seat68 Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 So many gods. So so many gods but the god that is in a book that I can read is the proper god, not the thousands and thousands of other gods. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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