limpid Posted August 22 Administrator Share Posted August 22 11 minutes ago, fruitvilla said: Yeah I agree ... but then to completely discount the New Testament and the Apocrypha is also a little unfair. Who did that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 1 minute ago, limpid said: Who did that? Who said that it was done? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 1 hour ago, limpid said: Which side was he on? The one with "God with us" on their belt buckles, or the "good" side that was made up of all religions (and none)? But he did. It's written as a quote. How do you decide which bits of the gospels are true and which aren't? I mean you can't just cherry pick or you can't claim that the Jesus you describe is historically accurate. FWIW, I suspect there were many apocalyptic prophets around at the time. Probably more than one called Jeshua. I'm not sure why people decided to deify a failed one that stated that he would return (and the world would end) within the lifetime of some that heard him speak. I think he was among hitlers thoughts. I watched something a few years ago and it said hitler was now in hell with the demons. That quote would be interpreted wrong. We need to be rational here and by being so we’d agree Jesus was probably real and more than likely a peaceful man. Wether he was son of god etc I can understand why some were nr go that far but he was certainly peaceful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seat68 Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 7 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said: I think he was among hitlers thoughts. I watched something a few years ago and it said hitler was now in hell with the demons. That quote would be interpreted wrong. We need to be rational here and by being so we’d agree Jesus was probably real and more than likely a peaceful man. Wether he was son of god etc I can understand why some were nr go that far but he was certainly peaceful. Probably real? Even the staunchest atheists can’t deny he existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 2 minutes ago, Seat68 said: Probably real? Even the staunchest atheists can’t deny he existed. I’m using the word probably for the doubters. I know he was real . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nor-Cal Villan Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 1 hour ago, fruitvilla said: While the myth of Christ is likely based on some bloke called "Yeshua" (יֵשׁוּעַ) is probably quite likely (who knows). It was a common name at the time. Now if we are trying to ascertain the reliability of Jesus's Biblical existence we need to ascertain contemporary references outside of the Bible. Using the Bible to determine the truth of the Biblical Jesus is a little circular. So the contemporary extra-Biblical references are, courtesy of ChatGPT: 1. Tacitus (c. 56 – c. 120 AD) Source: Annals, written around 116 AD. Reference: Tacitus, a Roman historian, mentions Jesus in his account of the Great Fire of Rome in 64 AD, during the reign of Emperor Nero. Tacitus refers to Christians as followers of "Christus," who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. He describes Christianity as a "mischievous superstition" that spread from Judea to Rome. Quote: "Christus, from whom the name [Christians] had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus..." (Annals 15.44). 2. Josephus (c. 37 – c. 100 AD) Source: Antiquities of the Jews, written around 93-94 AD. Reference: Josephus, a Jewish historian, mentions Jesus twice. The first is a brief reference to James, "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ." The second mention, known as the Testimonium Flavianum, is a longer passage that discusses Jesus’ life and crucifixion. However, scholars debate the authenticity of parts of this passage, suggesting possible later Christian interpolation. Quote: "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die." (Adjusted for debated interpolations). 3. Pliny the Younger (c. 61 – c. 113 AD) Source: Letters (Book 10, Letter 96), written around 112 AD. Reference: Pliny, a Roman governor, wrote to Emperor Trajan seeking advice on how to deal with Christians. He mentions that Christians worship Christ as a god and describes their practices, including meeting before dawn and reciting hymns to Christ. Quote: "They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god..." 4. Suetonius (c. 69 – c. 122 AD) Source: The Twelve Caesars, written around 121 AD. Reference: Suetonius, another Roman historian, briefly mentions "Chrestus" (a common misspelling of Christus, or Christ) in connection with disturbances caused by Jews in Rome during the reign of Emperor Claudius (41-54 AD). Some scholars believe this may refer to the expulsion of Jews from Rome mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles. Quote: "Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome." (The Twelve Caesars, Life of Claudius 25.4). 5. Mara Bar-Serapion (sometime after 73 AD) Source: Letter from Mara Bar-Serapion to his son. Reference: This Syrian Stoic philosopher mentions the execution of "the wise king" of the Jews, often interpreted as a reference to Jesus. The letter suggests that the Jews suffered because of this unjust execution. Quote: "What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king? It was just after that their kingdom was abolished." 6. Lucian of Samosata (c. 125 – c. 180 AD) Source: The Death of Peregrinus, written around 165 AD. Reference: Lucian, a Greek satirist, makes a mocking reference to Christians and their worship of a "crucified sage." While his tone is dismissive, it confirms the existence of Christians who revered Jesus. Quote: "The Christians... worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account." These references, while not all uncontroversial or detailed, provide non-Christian attestations to the existence of Jesus and the early Christian movement, supporting the historical reality of Jesus as a person who lived in the first century. <end of chat> Note none of these sources are exactly contemporary. And the shroud? Again according to chat To make a 2,000-year-old sample appear as though it is only 700 years old in terms of radiocarbon dating, you would need to mix the sample with approximately 64.9% modern carbon. This means that just over half of the carbon in the final mixture would need to be modern carbon. I put my trust in Pliny the Elder 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted August 22 VT Supporter Share Posted August 22 1 hour ago, Chindie said: We don't know it's accurate (there may not have been someone called Jesus at that time, or more accurately someone called Jesus that met the basic requirements of what we believe 'Jesus' to be), and the problem is saying 'Jesus existed' isn't like saying 'Dave existed' - it has a lot of baggage that needs elaboration. It's easier to say Jesus didn't exist. Otherwise the accurate way to say it would be something like 'A man may have born in 1AD, possibly in Nazareth, possibly called Jesus, who was probably Jewish, and we know nothing else at all about him, existed', to which saying 'Aha, see, Jesus was real' is a bit silly. But he did exist. Or at least the historical consensus, which is all we can really go on, says he existed. For me it’s more important to acknowledge that rather than dismiss it. If you dismiss it it weakens your argument for the other stuff because you’re ignoring the evidence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nor-Cal Villan Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 (edited) 1 hour ago, limpid said: All the others are so removed in time they are like people today claiming that they saw Elvis alive 40 years ago. Some of these are like people today claiming they knew Queen Victoria. I did actually see Elvis 49 years ago, at the Asheville Civic Center https://wncmagazine.com/burning-love Quote Elvis Presley breezed through Asheville virtually unknown in 1955, opening for acts he’d soon eclipse. By the time he reappeared here, for three sold-out shows in late July 1975, it was anyone’s guess as to whether the superstar would shine on or burn out. The tickets cost only $10, but for many local fans, he was still the undisputed King of Rock ‘n’ Roll. At the same time, Elvis, addled by teeter-tottering moods and a heaping helping of pills, was at risk of becoming a jester. One of his buddies would later recall that Elvis was then as unpredictable as “a ping-pong ball going down the hallway.” Edited August 22 by Nor-Cal Villan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seat68 Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 1 hour ago, Rugeley Villa said: I’m using the word probably for the doubters. I know he was real . Is this some immersive Joaquin Phoenix thing? As a person he may have been real. As real as any other man in the middle east as that time. They are not the basis for a religion purely by existing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 5 minutes ago, Seat68 said: Is this some immersive Joaquin Phoenix thing? As a person he may have been real. As real as any other man in the middle east as that time. They are not the basis for a religion purely by existing. And his mother was Mary . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 (edited) 1 hour ago, Seat68 said: Probably real? Even the staunchest atheists can’t deny he existed. A man called Jesus existed. But I don't think there is any evidence beyond that. There is plenty of historic fact that disproves his life story. For example the Romans didn't hold a census around that time. No Roman census ever required people to return to their village of origin. Edited August 22 by Mandy Lifeboats Spelling mishsteaks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seat68 Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 1 minute ago, Mandy Lifeboats said: A man called Jesus existed. But I don't think there is any evidence beyond that. There us plenty of historic fact that disproves his life story. For example the Romans didn't hold a census around that time. No Roman census ever required people to return to their village of origin. Oh believe me. I am on board with this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted August 22 Share Posted August 22 9 minutes ago, Seat68 said: Oh believe me. I am on board with this. I always explain it thus>> When I research Abraham Lincoln I find references to him being a President of the USA who was assassinated. I also find references to him being a vampire hunter. I conclude that Lincoln existed but not everything written about him is factual. Jesus is exactly the same. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 On 16/08/2024 at 15:25, Rugeley Villa said: Not sure but I know the Adam and Eve story where god makes man and woman. On 16/08/2024 at 15:29, sidcow said: I'm pretty sure if you believe that then you also believe god made the man who felt like he wanted to be a woman. On 16/08/2024 at 15:31, Rugeley Villa said: God made Shania Twain and that’s the last I’ll say on the subject . Trying hard to get this little back and forth out of my brain since I read it earlier and it's not happening. I appreciate you said you don't want to comment further but I wasn't really thinking about the trnsgender issue itself. Not being a clearing (for a change) and not trying to start a holy war or a pile on, but Ruge (or any other believers out there reading), is it your belief that everything that exists in the world like now, today, was created by God? and if not where does it come from? I appreciate it's basically a standard existential question, but I'm genuinely interested. If one believes God made man and woman did he also make all the intersex people that can't be dismissed as a mental illness like some people think the trans's are suffering from? And disabilities for instance, are they God's work too? Geninely not to dismiss one's belief in God but how much stuff in existence do his mysterious ways cover? I can't stress enough I'm interested in what people think, not in proving any particular point right. I also respect the fact that no one is required to answer. I just had to get it down in writing so I can stop mulling it over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 30 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said: Trying hard to get this little back and forth out of my brain since I read it earlier and it's not happening. I appreciate you said you don't want to comment further but I wasn't really thinking about the trnsgender issue itself. Not being a clearing (for a change) and not trying to start a holy war or a pile on, but Ruge (or any other believers out there reading), is it your belief that everything that exists in the world like now, today, was created by God? and if not where does it come from? I appreciate it's basically a standard existential question, but I'm genuinely interested. If one believes God made man and woman did he also make all the intersex people that can't be dismissed as a mental illness like some people think the trans's are suffering from? And disabilities for instance, are they God's work too? Geninely not to dismiss one's belief in God but how much stuff in existence do his mysterious ways cover? I can't stress enough I'm interested in what people think, not in proving any particular point right. I also respect the fact that no one is required to answer. I just had to get it down in writing so I can stop mulling it over. It was a bit tongue in cheek from me but I’ll give it a go . It’s complicated isn’t it because if you believe that god made man as the picture of himself then made a woman to keep man company and reproduce then why do we have people born massively disabled ? Why do we have cancer ? Etc etc etc . Did god make every living creature ? It says he did but did he really make every living thing from say an elephant to a tiny microscopic bug ? I believe in a higher power(God) I think there are other worlds or realms outside the physical world we live in . People say well where are they we can’t see them we can’t feel them etc. It would all be so easy if all these type of questions could be answered and proven but I believe some things are not for us to see whilst we live in this world and some of our questions will be answered when we pass and move on to our next journey. I generally believe there are good and bad forces in this world and believe in the power of Jesus Christ. I’m pretty convinced when we die it isn’t the end and our spirit form continues. Many things happen for a reason. I’m by no means educated on religion or god but I don’t feel like I need to be. I just believe and have faith . Some of the things I’ve said might sound like a cop out, but as I said wouldn’t it all be so easy if we knew all the answers. There’s so much more going on in this universe and beyond that we just aren’t meant to know what how or when. God is all around us if you want him to be. I think having faith is a gift and a wonderful thing if practised correctly but there are plenty of wolfs in sheep’s clothing as we got warned. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 My mate who’s a catholic and his god is the god of his childhood but without “ The Bells Smells And Bollocks “ as he puts it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 I don't believe in gods of any sort. However I can see an explanation gods allowing cancer, war and suffering. If you have a aquarium you firstly create it. You place fish in there. Any new fish born there don't know any other universe. It's their universe. You keep the aquarium clean. You heat the water. You replace the gravel. You add plants and a tasteful ruined castle and a diver. You provide food. You oxygenate the water. You are a God. They can't survive without you. You can end their universe in seconds. You care for the fish. You want them to survive and thrive. But you can't stop Dave the Fish getting ill. You can't stop Mary the fish being attacked by her boyfriend. You can't stop baby fish being eaten. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted August 27 Author VT Supporter Share Posted August 27 21 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said: But you can't stop Dave the Fish getting ill. You can't stop Mary the fish being attacked by her boyfriend. You can't stop baby fish being eaten. But you can. You're omnipotent. You just choose not to, because you're a clearing in the woods. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted August 27 Share Posted August 27 36 minutes ago, mjmooney said: But you can. You're omnipotent. How dare you. Whether I can father children is no concern of yours. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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