All-Purpose Religion Thread

[Kiwivillan]

There is no historical record of Jesus from the time that he lived. Not a shred.

The most apt historians who might have written about Jesus as he was a contemporary was Philo of Alexandaria.

Philo wrote extensive apologetics on the Jewish religion and commentaries on contemporary politics. Philo offers commentary on all the major characters of the OT and, as we might expect, mentions Moses more than a thousand times.

Yet Philo says not a word about Jesus, Christianity nor any of the events described in the New Testament. In all this work, Philo makes not a single reference to his alleged contemporary "Jesus Christ", the godman who supposedly was perambulating up and down the Levant, exorcising demons, raising the dead and causing earthquake and darkness at his death.

Even parts of his work on Herod Agrippa, Herod the Great's grandson, who was ridiculed and lampooned by the Jewish public seem alarmingly similar to the mocking treatment of Jesus as "The King of the Jews" in Gospel of Matthew.

THERE IS NO RELIABLE HISTORICAL EVEIDENCE OF JESUS AS A HISTORICAL FIGURE.

[norton65ca]

^^^ This.

OzVillan, I was for 29 years exactly where you are at.

It all fell apart when I finally could not avoid the conclusion that the Bible (what I had heretofore accepted was the divinely inspired Word of God) was a flawed collection of narratives that were not what they appeared to be, and were not what they were represented to me to be.

It didn't fall apart because I wanted it to, in fact I was doing everything within my power to prevent that from occurring, to be honest, but when one discovers something is not true which one had believed to be so, no amount of mental gymnastics could bring the belief back.

Oz, I am not ashamed to admit I shed many tears (as a 48 year old man that can be difficult to admit in an open forum...) but I had staked my eternal soul (or what I thought was an eternal soul) on the concept that the cross on Calvary's hill and what happened around it was the central fact of existence and the centre of all history. I had given my life over to God in the form of his son, crucified in order that I might be free from sin and its consequences and free to live an abundant and meaningful life.

For 29 years I lived this reality. but from the beginning, there were a number of fundamental issues. The exclusivity of the plan of salvation for one. I could not accept that any god could hold his creations responsible ETERNALLY for finite temporal sins. It was profoundly repulsive to my moral centre. For years I thought to myself that I was not seeing everything, being mortal and that one day I would understand and all would be made clear. That day shall never come now.

The bible isn't the Word of God, because there are far too many errors. How is it possible to accept the written scriptures as the Word of God when for example it states plain as the nose on your face that Abraham used domestic camels for example, 2500 years BC, when they weren't domesticated yet? How come the Genesis account and Exodus refer to towns and cities that weren't even built at that time? How come, if there were hundreds of thousands of Israelites trooping around Sinai for 40 years there's not a single crumb of evidence?

I tried, OzV, I really **** tried to keep the faith, but I'm a man who doesn't like pat answers and I research. the research I made led me to the inescapable conclusion that the bible is a fabrication, written after the Babylonian captivity around 700-350 BC, not 2500 BC, and the New testament, well that's another matter entirely, a carefully planned and well constructed theological document collection purposely put together to found a new religion. Jesus might well have been a great guy, but in all likelihood, he never existed.

I could go on for hours about this but it's midnight here on Vancouver Island. PM me if interested in chatting further about this, I am not joking, I was "saved" at 19 years of age when I first hit the wet coast and was deeply and fully immersed in a gospel street ministry for a long time. I have studied Christian apologetics, Church history, I have studied biblical matters till I'm blue in the face, I've read everything CS Lewis ever wrote about the faith, William Barkley? check. AW Tozer? check. Charles Finney? Check. Francis Schaeffer? check. been there, done that. street evangelism? yes. Prayer groups, yes, all night vigils? yes. serving the poor? yes. Not tooting any horns here, I'm just simply saying Iwas there in a real way for a huge chunk of my adult life, but I'm done now.

I'm not in the business of anti evangelizing, but if you study the bible honestly and are prepared to really examine it while being prepared to remove blinders and be honest, you'll likely come to similar conclusions.

[norton65ca]

even the Josephus fragment referring to Jesus has been revealed to be a later surreptitious addition of dubious origins.

[norton65ca]

...and for those of you complaining as to why one only gets the nutty Christians and why not some "mainstream" ones, the truth of the matter is, historically speaking, for 2000 years the definition of a christian has always been one who reveres the bible as the word of god in all of its super naturalness, because it reveals the "offensive" idea that almighty god, invaded history in the form of his only begotten son, fully god/fully man, supernaturally revived after experiencing real death on a real cross, and really physically resurrected out of a real tomb and really left here for somewhere "else". The essence of Christianity is this. The "moderns" who avoid the rather more outrageous aspects of the faith as delineated above, are really fooling themselves, liberal Christianity is Christianity lite, it's had its guts taken out and is a hollow philosophical shell. Christianity has always been militant, intolerant, exclusive and unrepentant. It is, by definition, a profoundly supernatural religion and when that is removed, it is, for want of a better word, nothing.

[norton65ca]

basically one has to jump in with both feet. The bible must be accepted as a divinely inspired narrative otherwise the faith has no foundation. This was the crippler for me, once the validity of the foundational texts was called into question, the faith had nothing to stand on. One can take away some of it as moral tales, lessons, metaphors, but not all of it, and where does one stop?

Example, right at the beginning: Adam and Eve and the garden story. We (I would hope) can conclude that this is a common creation tale similar to (and probably adapted from) The Epic of Gilgamesh. That being said, it leaves Christian theologians with a bit of a problem. The entire Christian tale is based on the fall of Mankind, and original sin. If the fall never occurred, and there is no original sin, then it follows logically that there is no requirement for a saviour. Paul referred repeatedly to Adam's disobedience and the concept that through one man's rebellion sin came into the world and through one mans obedience sin shall be conquered. If Adam and Eve are myths, then so is the fall. Big Problem for theologians that one. jesus dies for nothing if there is no original disobedience resulting in the banishment from the garden. It simply won't hold water.

Oz, here's a phrase you must be experiencing to some degree or another: cognitive dissonance. I know it well. If you are an honest, thinking human being, you must admit that there are aspects of the faith that trouble you, you couldn't be human and deny it. D'you really think that we could possibly be joyful through all eternity knowing that our friends, relatives and loved ones are off being tortured and burned eternally for simply being human? It's barbaric and wicked.

I tired universalism for a while, it seemed the only way to get around this abominable hideous and downright sick doctrine. It lasted all of two weeks before I threw the entire thing in the trash and walked away.

OzV, we were had. It's hard to deal with that, I know, but it's true, we were had by the oldest team of snake oil salesmen the world has known. But there have been millions before us. The truth is though, we are not ignorant illiterate folk from the middle ages, we are modern people who live with the benefits of science and a wealth of educational information available to us, there is no longer any excuse for squeezing our eyes shut and jamming our thumbs into our ears because what we see and hear goes against the indoctrination we have received. It's time to grow up as a human race and put benighted fantasies and old tales back where they belong, on a bookshelf with all the Greek myths, the Norse legends and yes, the Epic of Gilgamesh.

[CrackpotForeigner]

Some more questions for you OVF. (But first, respect to Norton for his frank admission and well-argued explanations. I was also raised in a pretty religious society, though thankfully not by particularly religious parents. I was 16 or 17 before I actually said the words "I am not a Christian")

Are you aware of the historical context within which the story of Jesus arose?

[The Romans had occupied Palestine and were predictably brutal in their methods, crucifying folk left right and centre. The Jews were desperate to be freed from Roman occupation, and every man and his dog was praying for the coming of the/a Messsiah. In fact there were heaps of Messiahs at the time. Some had more successful messianic careers than others. Monty Python's Life of Brian, despite the humour, paints a fairly accurate picture.]

Do you accept that there are people born every decade (or even every year) who have the ability to attract Followers who believe them to be special individuals?

[Examples would be Jim Jones, David Koresh, Charles Manson and others. We only hear about a lot of them because they are particularly evil. There are plenty more that we never hear about. I personally have two acquaintances (one in Canada, one in Australia) who follow guru-type spiritual leaders]

Why are you so convinced of the truth of the Resurrection, despite the lack of evidence, and despite the lack of repeat "miracles" in the last two thousand years?

Why are you so convinced that the Bible is the Word of God, despite the fact that anyone can write a book, and despite the ease with which a desperate people can be persuaded of its importance?

If you imagine yourself a devout believer in the 1850's, how would the publication of Darwin's Origin of Species affect your view of the Bible as the unquestionable Word of God?

[norton65ca]

http://tinyurl.com/cpwbnye

beware, reading this will cause you trouble OzVillan. just sayin' ;-)

[norton65ca]

http://tinyurl.com/zrvw8

terribly poorly laid out website but an absolute goldmine of information

http://tinyurl.com/cxjzao3

another very good resource.

http://tinyurl.com/fplbh

and another...

(I hope these links are short enough??)

OzV, if, like many Christians, you refrain from accessing non Christian sources, then:

a) your fear of deception is stronger than your faith

or

you're not being an honest researcher.

Your faith should, if it has any validity at all, be able to deal with honest and sincere questions and objections. "Come let us reason together saith the Lord" The Book of Job somewhere, can't remember the chapter and verse...

[PussEKatt]

Here is another point: Eve talking to the snake.

Dave Allen made a joke out of this a while back and I actually looked it up in the bible.These are not the exact words, but it goes something like this.

Eve: Hello

Snake: Hello, why don"t you try this apple.

Eve:No, I am not allowed to.

Snake: Go on it will be allright, God won"t find out.

Eve:Ok

I dont know what you people do when you see a snake but here in OZ we do 1 of 3 things.

1-Drive over it ( if you are in a car at the time )

2-Kill it ( if you have a spade or something in your hand at the time )

3- Get the hell out of there.

I have met a few people who have come across snakes and not one of them has stopped to talk to it.

[limpid]

(I hope these links are short enough??)

Why hope when you can read the posting guidelines? For they are truly the word of mod.

[legov]

Here is another point: Eve talking to the snake.

Dave Allen made a joke out of this a while back and I actually looked it up in the bible.These are not the exact words, but it goes something like this.

Eve: Hello

Snake: Hello, why don"t you try this apple.

Eve:No, I am not allowed to.

Snake: Go on it will be allright, God won"t find out.

Eve:Ok

I dont know what you people do when you see a snake but here in OZ we do 1 of 3 things.

1-Drive over it ( if you are in a car at the time )

2-Kill it ( if you have a spade or something in your hand at the time )

3- Get the hell out of there.

I have met a few people who have come across snakes and not one of them has stopped to talk to it.

Well, technically it was a serpent

[PussEKatt]

A serpent would get the same treatment

[legov]

I wonder if Constantine I was ever really anything more than a nominal Christian.

[norton65ca]

links updated to reflect site guidelines

[mjmooney]

links updated to reflect site guidelines

Good man. Jesus loves you for that. :winkold:

[GarethRDR]

Lucky! Jesus only likes me as a friend.

[norton65ca]

I wonder if Constantine I was ever really anything more than a nominal Christian.

You are probably quite right. He was in my opinion an opportunistic bandwagon jumper who saw the writing on the wall. critical mass had been reached and he simply switched sides.

http://tinyurl.com/rmn4a

[CrackpotForeigner]

links updated to reflect site guidelines

And lo, they were 1% shorter, and Mod looked on, and he was pleased

[mjmooney]

I wonder if Constantine I was ever really anything more than a nominal Christian.

You are probably quite right. He was in my opinion an opportunistic bandwagon jumper who saw the writing on the wall. critical mass had been reached and he simply switched sides.

http://tinyurl.com/rmn4a

Quite an entertaining (and educational) website, that. I like.

[norton65ca]

I agree but the layout I find to be just awful ;-) It's a freaking labyrinth, the digital equivalent of the Mines of Moria!