mjmooney Posted October 16, 2015 Author VT Supporter Share Posted October 16, 2015 Bit of a Sparks vibe going on there. EDIT: Or maybe Madness. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted October 17, 2015 Administrator Share Posted October 17, 2015 There's nothing wrong with adults having make-believe friends. There's nothing wrong with ridiculing such beliefs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 There's nothing wrong with adults having make-believe friends. There's nothing wrong with ridiculing such beliefs.There's nothing wrong with adults believing in personal and socially useful fictions. There's nothing wrong with ridiculing those fictions, as long as no one is allowed to make their own personal and useful fictions an exception. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 ObserverClergy release text of private letter sent in September as it emerges that PM snubbed church’s offer of help.........A Downing Street spokesman declined to answer why the bishops had not received a full response from the prime minister. Church urges increase on the 20,000 refugees to be offered sanctuary in UK, and offers to help facilitate an increase. No response received from government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Ikantcpell Posted November 15, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted November 15, 2015 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 15, 2015 Moderator Share Posted November 15, 2015 2 hours ago, Ikantcpell said: I used to think that, sort of. But I've recently found it to be very wrong. I worked with an American man recently. He was extremely clever, seriously a world leading expert in his field and a really nice bloke. Analytical, intelligent, logical and so on. I could talk with him about almost any subject and I had no idea that he held any religious views until one night in the bar I let slip something along the lines of the content of that picture and that I didn't get how anyone in the field of science could believe in a supernatural invisible being controlling our lives, due to the complete absence of any evidence whatsoever to support such a belief. I fully expected him to agree. He didn't. He said he was religious. I thought he was kidding me. But no. We (I wasn't the only other person in the conversation with him) kind of said "why...er...how can you believe in something for which there's no evidence...etc" and this man, probably one of the most reasoned and reasoning people I've ever met kind of went over his beliefs, leaving us nonplussed, still. Then he went and got a round in, and the next topic of conversation moved on from it. He is a funny, generous and clever bloke and I guess that what I learnt from it, is it's quite wrong to assume, as I perhaps lazily did, that religious belief at least in part comes from a lack of rigour in thinking and reasoning. It obviously doesn't. He is evidence of that. And there will be many many more like him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikantcpell Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 Is this just bullshit, or are these things actually in the quran? I havent read it, but maybe someone on here has? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 On 15/11/2015, 13:12:32, blandy said: I used to think that, sort of. But I've recently found it to be very wrong. I worked with an American man recently. He was extremely clever, seriously a world leading expert in his field and a really nice bloke. Analytical, intelligent, logical and so on. I could talk with him about almost any subject and I had no idea that he held any religious views until one night in the bar I let slip something along the lines of the content of that picture and that I didn't get how anyone in the field of science could believe in a supernatural invisible being controlling our lives, due to the complete absence of any evidence whatsoever to support such a belief. I fully expected him to agree. He didn't. He said he was religious. I thought he was kidding me. But no. We (I wasn't the only other person in the conversation with him) kind of said "why...er...how can you believe in something for which there's no evidence...etc" and this man, probably one of the most reasoned and reasoning people I've ever met kind of went over his beliefs, leaving us nonplussed, still. Then he went and got a round in, and the next topic of conversation moved on from it. He is a funny, generous and clever bloke and I guess that what I learnt from it, is it's quite wrong to assume, as I perhaps lazily did, that religious belief at least in part comes from a lack of rigour in thinking and reasoning. It obviously doesn't. He is evidence of that. And there will be many many more like him. “You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe” ― Carl Sagan Even intelligent, rational and logical minds are prone to believe bollocks if they want or need something to be true . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supermon Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 17 minutes ago, Ikantcpell said: Is this just bullshit, or are these things actually in the quran? I havent read it, but maybe someone on here has? Research yourself here http://quran.com/ But if you choose one of those passages, then read the full Chapter. It's not possible to cherry pick one liners from the Quran without understanding the full meaning, what the chapter is about, the contents before the said line and after the said line. It is these type of of one liners that so called "extremists" use and are brainwahsed without fully understanding the true meaning of the verses. BTW your picture has summarized the actual verses. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post sharkyvilla Posted November 17, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted November 17, 2015 There are equally brutal and ridiculous bits in the bible too. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted November 17, 2015 Moderator Share Posted November 17, 2015 51 minutes ago, supermon said: Research yourself here http://quran.com/ But if you choose one of those passages, then read the full Chapter. It's not possible to cherry pick one liners from the Quran without understanding the full meaning, what the chapter is about, the contents before the said line and after the said line. It is these type of of one liners that so called "extremists" use and are brainwahsed without fully understanding the true meaning of the verses. BTW your picture has summarized the actual verses. I don't share the view of Islam that this post was portraying or as an non believe hold a more negative view of Islam than I do any religion. I feel that is important to stress. That said, while I agree with you that individual lines of any text taken in isolation and out of context can be made to look quite different to how they are intended I'm struggling a little to see what context could change the meaning of some of those extracts. I'm not accusing Islam of anything, I would be genuinely interested if someone who knows more about the religion and the quran than I do could add context to those lines that make their meaning different. Just to add, I completely agree with Sharky that similarly unpleasant lines exist in the bible as well. I'm yet to be convinced though that seeing them in context improve them. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikantcpell Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 1 hour ago, supermon said: Research yourself here http://quran.com/ But if you choose one of those passages, then read the full Chapter. It's not possible to cherry pick one liners from the Quran without understanding the full meaning, what the chapter is about, the contents before the said line and after the said line. It is these type of of one liners that so called "extremists" use and are brainwahsed without fully understanding the true meaning of the verses. BTW your picture has summarized the actual verses. Ok, then maybe you can explain to me what the true meaning of the verses are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikantcpell Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 1 hour ago, sharkyvilla said: There are equally brutal and ridiculous bits in the bible too. It dosent make it any better does it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 17, 2015 Moderator Share Posted November 17, 2015 You can find what you want to find with these kind of things, for most books about superstition and sky fairies. For example If you google for Quran quotes about peace and stuff then it throws up all kinds of good things including- “God does not forbid you from being good to those who have not fought you in the religion or driven you from your homes, or from being just towards them. God loves those who are just.” (Surat al-Mumtahana, 8) “We have appointed a law and a practice for every one of you. Had God willed, He would have made you a single community, but He wanted to test you regarding what has come to you. So compete with each other in doing good. Every one of you will return to God and He will inform you regarding the things about which you differed.” (Surat al-Ma’ida, 48) “There is no compulsion where the religion is concerned.” (Holy Quran: 2/ 256) “God does not love corruption”. (Surat al-Baqara, 205) Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted November 17, 2015 Author VT Supporter Share Posted November 17, 2015 If you google for Quran quotes about peace and stuff then it throws up all kinds of good things including- “God does not forbid you from being good to those who have not fought you in the religion or driven you from your homes, or from being just towards them. God loves those who are just.” (Surat al-Mumtahana, 8) “We have appointed a law and a practice for every one of you. Had God willed, He would have made you a single community, but He wanted to test you regarding what has come to you. So compete with each other in doing good. Every one of you will return to God and He will inform you regarding the things about which you differed.” (Surat al-Ma’ida, 48) “There is no compulsion where the religion is concerned.” (Holy Quran: 2/ 256) “God does not love corruption”. (Surat al-Baqara, 205) Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors." So in other words, the whole is an inconsistent jumble of internal self-contradiction, just like the Bible? Who'da thought it, eh? [emoji52] 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 3 minutes ago, blandy said: If you google for Quran quotes about peace and stuff then it throws up all kinds of good things including- “God does not forbid you from being good to those who have not fought you in the religion or driven you from your homes, or from being just towards them. God loves those who are just.” (Surat al-Mumtahana, 8) “We have appointed a law and a practice for every one of you. Had God willed, He would have made you a single community, but He wanted to test you regarding what has come to you. So compete with each other in doing good. Every one of you will return to God and He will inform you regarding the things about which you differed.” (Surat al-Ma’ida, 48) “There is no compulsion where the religion is concerned.” (Holy Quran: 2/ 256) “God does not love corruption”. (Surat al-Baqara, 205) Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors." Number 4 is hilarious . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted November 17, 2015 Moderator Share Posted November 17, 2015 Just now, Ikantcpell said: It dosent make it any better does it ? No, but that isn't the point or at least not the point as I took it to be. For me the point is that the religion, be it Islam, Christianity etc isn't the issue and neither is the actual religious text it is more how they are used. Currently some that follow the Islamic faith are using elements of the text to justify the most horrific of behaviour, much the same as some Christians did during the Crusades. The problem isn't the religion, the religious text or those who follow the religion on mass. The problem is those who use these extracts to pursue their goals, justify their actions and ultimately to convince others to follow them. I detest the use of the phrase brainwashed as it implies a lack of free will that I don't think exists. The Quran, the Bible et al were written thousands of years ago by men of their time, not by God's even if you believe they contain the word of God. They represent a brutal time, a time in the most part completely different to the here and now other than in some place in the Middle East. The issues occur when people of any particular religion hold the contents of their particular scripture to be taken literally and their actions result from that rather than viewing it more liberally through the eyes of modernity. Religion isn't the problem, religious texts aren't particularly the problem although they don't help, its people. Personally I don't think excusing elements of any religious text by talking about wider context helps. What people/religions need to do is be a little more honest, say these things are written by man, that they are old and that while the positive themes, messages etc hold true some of the contents simply can't be justified in the modern world and shouldn't be taken literally. Those things will never happen of course, religions at their very heart are about conversion, self protection and expansion they will never admit the obvious faults in the texts on which they and their power and wealth is built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexbelowsound Posted November 17, 2015 Share Posted November 17, 2015 We need football to resume. ASAP. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted November 17, 2015 Moderator Share Posted November 17, 2015 I feel a quiz coming on, Bible or Quran you be the judge. (loser gets executed in a horrific way, obviously) Who is up first? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post omariqy Posted November 17, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted November 17, 2015 9 minutes ago, TrentVilla said: I don't share the view of Islam that this post was portraying or as an non believe hold a more negative view of Islam than I do any religion. I feel that is important to stress. That said, while I agree with you that individual lines of any text taken in isolation and out of context can be made to look quite different to how they are intended I'm struggling a little to see what context could change the meaning of some of those extracts. I'm not accusing Islam of anything, I would be genuinely interested if someone who knows more about the religion and the quran than I do could add context to those lines that make their meaning different. Just to add, I completely agree with Sharky that similarly unpleasant lines exist in the bible as well. I'm yet to be convinced though that seeing them in context improve them. I'll gladly ask someone more learned than me on those verses. From my knowledge those are not accurate at all. I mean not even close. Further, some of the passages are directly related to the time of the prophet pbuh when they were being persecuted and driven out of their homes. Therefore there are commandments or instructions from God on how to fight or to keep belief because they were so outnumbered. I' As an example Quran 22:19 - 'These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord), for them will be cut out a garment of Fire, over their heads will be poured out boiling water' Now this is a description of what hell will be like. I'm sorry but I am not sure what people would expect in a description of hell. However, it is now being used as what Muslilms are supposed to do to non believers. I.e. it is completely false. Second example: Quran 9:30 - 'The Jews call Uzair a son of Allah and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allahs curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth' Now how is that Jews and Christians are perverts, fight them? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts