drat01 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Eames - there is a fundamental difference between Milliband and Blair especially in terms of his eminence for want of a better word. Yes Cameron certainly should be being ripped apart and there are enough within his own political sphere that are doing that. As you say Farrage seems to have the better of hi, his own party members certainly seem to be cool towards him at very best and his "allies" within the media and fund raisers (tax avoiders!) certainly seem to lack any real support. But that comes back to are we talking about personalities here or are we talking about policies. For whatever reason Milliband does not strike a chord with certain members of the public, and when I see people saying they would not vote Labour because of him and his personality my heart sinks a little because it shows how shallow some people really are and what depths politics has sunk. There is an often used phrase, and Tony hates it - probably because it's true :-) - of pop idol politics. The whole idea behind the phrase is that people are voted for not on their abilities but on how they look and how their "sponsors" portray them. Milliband is not a shiny suit political figure like Cameron for instance, but then again we don't see him resort to the bully boy Flashman when challenged like Cameron. But at the end of the day that should care not one jot, and it should be down to what they and their party stand for and what they can and would deliver. As I have said before, out of the 3 main political parties (and I don't class UKIP as a main political party - they are just a bunch of right wing nut jobs with borderline racist views) there is not a true "leader" amongst them, and sadly there is not anyone standing in the wings ready to take over either for any of them. Marketing seems to be the key to success for some political figures, ironic given Cameron's background and his abject failure but that is another topic, and the more we go towards the US political model the worse things will go for the country as a whole IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 I've got a feeling that unlucky eddie will hold on and hold on against mounting pressure and ridicule right up until about March and then chuck it in. Giving no time to properly consider a new leader. Making it all the more likely they go in to the election on a Balls / Harman golden ticket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 I've got a feeling that unlucky eddie will hold on and hold on against mounting pressure and ridicule right up until about March and then chuck it in. Giving no time to properly consider a new leader. Making it all the more likely they go in to the election on a Balls / Harman golden ticket. No sure of that Chris. I can see the Labour party going for more a new guy not really taineted with previous Gvmt, someone like Chuka Umunna There was an interesting article on him in the very right wing Torygraph the other day http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11210065/Chuka-Umunna-is-the-only-mainstream-politician-with-the-guts-to-take-on-Ukip.-Good-for-him.html Chuka Umunna is starting to break the rules. Up until recently Labour’s shadow business secretary had become a byword for political caution and calculation. “He’s good, but it’s not clear what he stands for”, a shadow cabinet colleague told me a few month’s ago. Well, Umunna is taking a stand now. Last week he wrote an article in the South London Press on Ukip. And it was definitely not a pat repetition of the current Labour line to take......... more in the article He fits so many of the criteria that many class as required now for leadership of a political party, which you can argue is either a good or bad thing based on various factors. So will the next election be Boris vs Chuka ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eames Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 For whatever reason Milliband does not strike a chord with certain members of the public, and when I see people saying they would not vote Labour because of him and his personality my heart sinks a little because it shows how shallow some people really are and what depths politics has sunk. There is an often used phrase, and Tony hates it - probably because it's true :-) - of pop idol politics. The whole idea behind the phrase is that people are voted for not on their abilities but on how they look and how their "sponsors" portray them. Milliband is not a shiny suit political figure like Cameron for instance, but then again we don't see him resort to the bully boy Flashman when challenged like Cameron. But at the end of the day that should care not one jot, and it should be down to what they and their party stand for and what they can and would deliver. I wholeheartedly agree politics and elections should be fought with the emphasis on policy rather than personality, but that isn't reality. Ed is a poor leader and therefore the policy issues become irrelevant. If you don't respect the person you won't respect the policy. Ed comes across as an enthusiastic junior manager deputising for the day. Blair and Brown were undoubtabley the boss. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 For whatever reason Milliband does not strike a chord with certain members of the public, and when I see people saying they would not vote Labour because of him and his personality my heart sinks a little because it shows how shallow some people really are and what depths politics has sunk. There is an often used phrase, and Tony hates it - probably because it's true :-) - of pop idol politics. The whole idea behind the phrase is that people are voted for not on their abilities but on how they look and how their "sponsors" portray them. Milliband is not a shiny suit political figure like Cameron for instance, but then again we don't see him resort to the bully boy Flashman when challenged like Cameron. But at the end of the day that should care not one jot, and it should be down to what they and their party stand for and what they can and would deliver. I wholeheartedly agree politics and elections should be fought with the emphasis on policy rather than personality, but that isn't reality. Ed is a poor leader and therefore the policy issues become irrelevant. If you don't respect the person you won't respect the policy. Ed comes across as an enthusiastic junior manager deputising for the day. Blair and Brown were undoubtabley the boss. Eames - see I don't think he is a poor leader - he is not a great one but certainly not a poor one. As said someone who resorts to Flashman type attitudes is a poor leader ....... and we all know who fits that criteria :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 As I have said before, out of the 3 main political parties (and I don't class UKIP as a main political party - they are just a bunch of right wing nut jobs with borderline racist views) there is not a true "leader" amongst them, and sadly there is not anyone standing in the wings ready to take over either for any of them. Marketing seems to be the key to success for some political figures, That sums up the state of uk politics for me there mate 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 7, 2014 Moderator Share Posted November 7, 2014 Milliband is THE worst kind of leader, he surrounds himself with so many advisors he finds it damn hard to make a decision about anything and when he does its usually too late. Add to that my theory that the people doing his PR are either the worst inept PR people in the world or being paid by his enemies, if Labour are to stand any chance of winning, Miliband has to go.He can't get his message acrossHe keeps making the hugest PR gaffsHe can't even effectively attack Cameron when Cameron really should be on the floor begging him to stopI'm kind of hoping he stays so the left vote just jumps ship to the Greens en masse, Labour deserve to having a good kicking for all the shit they did when in office Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Milliband is THE worst kind of leader, he surrounds himself with so many advisors he finds it damn hard to make a decision about anything and when he does its usually too late. Add to that my theory that the people doing his PR are either the worst inept PR people in the world or being paid by his enemies, if Labour are to stand any chance of winning, Miliband has to go. He can't get his message across He keeps making the hugest PR gaffs He can't even effectively attack Cameron when Cameron really should be on the floor begging him to stopI'm kind of hoping he stays so the left vote just jumps ship to the Greens en masse, Labour deserve to having a good kicking for all the shit they did when in office that's me convinced ..where is a grassy knoll and a book store If the alternative is the Greens then we really are ducked ... I agree with your last part , and to a degree labour did get a kick in if you look at the map http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/2010UKElectionMap.svg The trouble is The Tory party haven't won an election outright since 1992 and probably can't win outright again ... though potentially losing 40 seats in Scotland could dent Labour a wee bit as well coalitions are here to stay for a while I'd imagine ... it's just who between that we have yet to find out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 7, 2014 Moderator Share Posted November 7, 2014 On Millibands PR - yes it's poor, but I do think that basically the media have through either their own interests, or through laziness/pop-idol stuff, have cottoned on to the "he isn't quite conventional" in terms of looks and mannerisms, and have just gone after him full bore as a result of that. He's basically being portrayed as weird and odd and all that, when he isn't (for a politician) any such thing. Given the media onslaught, he's not going to be able to overcome that, however good or bad his PR. The only thing he could and should therefore do is to go with "this is what I believe and this is what we'll do" Every time he does, Labour get a poll boost. Trouble is their plan has been to just win by default, basically - to inherit power, not to show they deserve it and will use it for the best. They're caught between not wanting to scare the horses and wanting to get a message across. They've constantly been too cautious, and not bold and brave enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 If Labour had policies to critique (a string of sound bites does not a policy agenda make) Labour's opponents would attack those. In the absence of policy poor little Ed is the only real thing they can go after. That said, as Eames points out it isn't just about policies. If the leader of a party is a useless ball sack, like Ed, then people have to consider what he'd be like as PM. Much as I hate everything about him even Clegg would be a better PM than Miliband. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) edit: will come back to that - a few typo's :-) Edited November 7, 2014 by drat01 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 The only thing he could and should therefore do is to go with "this is what I believe and this is what we'll do" Every time he does, Labour get a poll boost. I don't think it is what he believes though ... he says things his advisor's have told him are populist ..i.e this week an advisor says I heard people down the pub moaning about utility companies so what you need to do is say something that they like , doesn't matter how bonkers it is you'll never implement it but it will boost your popularity in the polls ... and so Ed comes out and says "i'll freeze energy prices " If Ed believed what he was saying , why would he attack tax dodging companies and then sign up with Amazon as a partner for collecting labour donations ... answer is clear ..he says it for the sound-bite but in reality he knows he hasn't got a prayer of getting Amazon to pay full whack 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Tony - I thought we had all agreed that map that you bring up every now and again is so flawed if you are trying to prove a popularity thing - if all constituencies were equal size then it would be but we all know that is not the case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) The only thing he could and should therefore do is to go with "this is what I believe and this is what we'll do" Every time he does, Labour get a poll boost. I don't think it is what he believes though ... he says things his advisor's have told him are populist ..i.e this week an advisor says I heard people down the pub moaning about utility companies so what you need to do is say something that they like , doesn't matter how bonkers it is you'll never implement it but it will boost your popularity in the polls ... and so Ed comes out and says "i'll freeze energy prices " If Ed believed what he was saying , why would he attack tax dodging companies and then sign up with Amazon as a partner for collecting labour donations ... answer is clear ..he says it for the sound-bite but in reality he knows he hasn't got a prayer of getting Amazon to pay full whack Tony - come on here, you make that as if it is just Millband and the Labour party . Let's be honest here this Gvmt has been totally knee jerk in so many of it;s policies - so much so it could be sponsored by a little hammer Your outrage is totally lost by it's hypocrisy Edited November 7, 2014 by drat01 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) The only thing he could and should therefore do is to go with "this is what I believe and this is what we'll do" Every time he does, Labour get a poll boost. I don't think it is what he believes though ... he says things his advisor's have told him are populist ..i.e this week an advisor says I heard people down the pub moaning about utility companies so what you need to do is say something that they like , doesn't matter how bonkers it is you'll never implement it but it will boost your popularity in the polls ... and so Ed comes out and says "i'll freeze energy prices " If Ed believed what he was saying , why would he attack tax dodging companies and then sign up with Amazon as a partner for collecting labour donations ... answer is clear ..he says it for the sound-bite but in reality he knows he hasn't got a prayer of getting Amazon to pay full whack Tony - come on here, you make that as if it is just Millband and the Labour party . Is he? I certainly didn't get that from his posts - I think he's just giving his opinion on Miliband and Labour which is what this thread is about after all. Edited November 7, 2014 by Mantis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Tony - I thought we had all agreed that map that you bring up every now and again is so flawed if you are trying to prove a popularity thing - if all constituencies were equal size then it would be but we all know that is not the case I just took it from wiki in answer to a question / statement from Bicks ... the question was about surprise Labour didn't get a kick in .... I'm not sure what other "evidence" I'm supposed to put forward other than one that shows how a country voted I'm not even sure I've ever used it before either tbh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 The only thing he could and should therefore do is to go with "this is what I believe and this is what we'll do" Every time he does, Labour get a poll boost. I don't think it is what he believes though ... he says things his advisor's have told him are populist ..i.e this week an advisor says I heard people down the pub moaning about utility companies so what you need to do is say something that they like , doesn't matter how bonkers it is you'll never implement it but it will boost your popularity in the polls ... and so Ed comes out and says "i'll freeze energy prices " If Ed believed what he was saying , why would he attack tax dodging companies and then sign up with Amazon as a partner for collecting labour donations ... answer is clear ..he says it for the sound-bite but in reality he knows he hasn't got a prayer of getting Amazon to pay full whack Tony - come on here, you make that as if it is just Millband and the Labour party . Is he? I certainly didn't get that from his posts - I think he's just giving his opinion on Miliband and Labour which is what this thread is about after all. this If you go in the UKIP thread you'll also see my opinions on UKIP and Nigel and in the Tory thread you'll see my opinions on Cameron ... funny that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 The only thing he could and should therefore do is to go with "this is what I believe and this is what we'll do" Every time he does, Labour get a poll boost. I don't think it is what he believes though ... he says things his advisor's have told him are populist ..i.e this week an advisor says I heard people down the pub moaning about utility companies so what you need to do is say something that they like , doesn't matter how bonkers it is you'll never implement it but it will boost your popularity in the polls ... and so Ed comes out and says "i'll freeze energy prices " If Ed believed what he was saying , why would he attack tax dodging companies and then sign up with Amazon as a partner for collecting labour donations ... answer is clear ..he says it for the sound-bite but in reality he knows he hasn't got a prayer of getting Amazon to pay full whack Tony - come on here, you make that as if it is just Millband and the Labour party . Is he? I certainly didn't get that from his posts - I think he's just giving his opinion on Miliband and Labour which is what this thread is about after all.oh dear mantis and tony a quick look shows that you have never said anything like that re Cameron - can to show where you have or at least agree that ALL politicians are knee jerk? Your post certainly does read as being one sided view And mantis any chance of sharing your views to what has a chance of being a reasonable chat? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 As we see on this thread with the vt Tory / ukip supporters making so many comments, there seems to be a push from that side of the uk political spectrum to try and personalise the whole leadership thing rather than question the policies of the respective parties. We all know that Cameron has failed on so many levels, from his inability to win an election despite the many millions of tax avoidance donations through to his failure to get even the basics right. As tony rightly says ish the uk has not had radical change for a while the biggest - and worst - was the selfish greed driven society of thatcher. Regarding milliband he has strong principles but is he a great leader ? Probably not, but compared to cuckold clegg and Cameron then the traits what political should be judged against he wins hands down The next couple of months are key for all parties especially Cameron with ukip stealing his mps and the debacle over the eu , you just have to wonder of how much scrutiny of milliband is a deflection from the real issues surrounding a weak ineffectual pm presumably yourself and Ajax wont be using the "Ahhh but " and "deflection " argument in the other thread any longer .... rumours of another pact today between the wannabe leaders .. of course the last pact between would be Labour leaders worked well Don't play that one Tony because we all know that if you were asked what is 2+2 your answer would be "Ah, but Labour...", it's like your trademark. I believe my trademark would involve the French , people in suits , cyclists and teachers way before that one however the point you are missing is that you and Mr D constantly referred to the "Ahh but" and "deflection" in your posts in the Tory thread and yet you've both been guilty of it in the spaces of a few posts ... I'll have to get my Hypocrisy card out for you both soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 I have trademarked all if Tony's traits - next week on dragons den I will present it as the Surrey I haven't got a clue ..... :-) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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