Darren Bent

[ciggiesnbeer]

Oh goody, its only been 8 weeks since we last had the who's to blame, Lerner or O'Neill? Discussion.

 

I resolved this last time. Its the fans fault. I double checked the numbers, they came out the same. Its us lot who messed this club up.

[Big_John_10]

I think the consequences that Mantis was talking about was the fact that our wage structure after that was clipped as the owner could not afford to keep bleeding money at the same rate.

We gave huge contracts to Nzogbia, Ireland, Hutton and Bent. We're going to lose a shit load of money on all of them.

It's no coincidence the things people blame MoN soley for continued for a couple more years.

I haven't seen anyone blame O'Neill solely for poor spending. Please, show me someone here who has.

So then it's not his fault it happened for 2 more years.

 

I never said the money wasted on the likes of Given, Hutton and N'Zogbia was his fault.

No you said battling relegation was.

Yet like you just said its not his fault how the money was spent after him.

Lets look at the 3 relegation battles.

1st one under houllier: Surely no sane person is going to argue that the squad he left was one destined for a relegation battle. We also smashed our transfer record 6 months after he left so investment wasn't a massive issue.

2nd one under Mcleish: Are you really going to take the blame away from Mcleish by suggesting somehow MoN was partly to blame? Again big contracts handed out to Hutton, given and Nzogbia show investment was still not a massive issue.

3rd one under Lambert: keep in mind by this point it was 2 whole years since he'd left the club. How on Earth did he have anything to do with this one? Investment was low because we'd pissed money away for 2 years and paid a fortune in compensation. It also took lambert a long time to find the right formation which I'm sure even you couldn't blame MON for.

I'm struggling to see how he's to blame for any of our relegation battles.

[thunderball]

The buck stops with Lerner. However MON shares the blame for presiding over the shit-or-bust policy when he held a hold over the naive Lerner (and CEO's).

MON is an of-the-moment manager who is now finished, and wont work again. We won't see his like again, the game has moved on and left them behind. But as correctly stated, the subsequent years have been spent wrestling with the contracts and ageing squad set up under MON. This is proper poor club management. There was no forward planning, and insightful Celtic fans bemoaned the same fate at their club post MON at the time and we couldn't see it because of the temporary success and Premier League £'s.

Lets close the door on this chapter and celebrate Lambert's reign which sits much more comfortably with most of us.

[Morpheus]

Ah so you're nitpicking overthe exact wording now? I even corrected myself that you implied that statement, so please keep up.

 

Bent, Ireland, N'Zogbia and Given were all first teamers from the last season that were given a fair chance by Lambert and outperformed by their cheaper counterparts.

 

But to be honest, we're so far from the point (and the topic) now that maybe we should stop.

Would you rather i refer to mind reading then than actually responding to what you've written. Trying to be smart Stefan doesn't suit you so stick to the debate.

 

Bent certainly wasn't given a fair crack of the whip by Lambert and the reasons for that will probably come out when he moves. N'Zogbia wasn't played in his best position and even when he did play he was the only one in our team who could show glimpses of creativity behind Benteke. You could argue that Given wasn't given a fair run of games either in the Premiership and that was down to the choice of the manager. I'll give you Ireland though because he is a waste of space.

[Mantis]

 

No you said battling relegation was.

Yet like you just said its not his fault how the money was spent after him.

Lets look at the 3 relegation battles.

1st one under houllier: Surely no sane person is going to argue that the squad he left was one destined for a relegation battle. We also smashed our transfer record 6 months after he left so investment wasn't a massive issue.

2nd one under Mcleish: Are you really going to take the blame away from Mcleish by suggesting somehow MoN was partly to blame? Again big contracts handed out to Hutton, given and Nzogbia show investment was still not a massive issue.

3rd one under Lambert: keep in mind by this point it was 2 whole years since he'd left the club. How on Earth did he have anything to do with this one? Investment was low because we'd pissed money away for 2 years and paid a fortune in compensation. It also took lambert a long time to find the right formation which I'm sure even you couldn't blame MON for.

I'm struggling to see how he's to blame for any of our relegation battles.

 

 

I never said he was entirely to blame, just that he must share some of the blame, as must Lerner, Houllier, McLeish and Lambert to varying extents. All actions have consequences, including O'Neill's. I don't know what's so hard to understand about that? His reckless spending (Lerner is also to blame for this) was what helped necessitate the spending cuts in the first place, which in turn have affected the club over the past few years.

[VillaForever1970]

Jesus wept obsessed!!!!

Do some people actually want to have sexy time with Martin **** o'neill? They seem to spend they're entire life defending him to the hilt.

He's bloody not here and hasn't been for a few years, he's a failed manager... unemployed currently I think as well.

[Big_John_10]

No you said battling relegation was.

Yet like you just said its not his fault how the money was spent after him.

Lets look at the 3 relegation battles.

1st one under houllier: Surely no sane person is going to argue that the squad he left was one destined for a relegation battle. We also smashed our transfer record 6 months after he left so investment wasn't a massive issue.

2nd one under Mcleish: Are you really going to take the blame away from Mcleish by suggesting somehow MoN was partly to blame? Again big contracts handed out to Hutton, given and Nzogbia show investment was still not a massive issue.

3rd one under Lambert: keep in mind by this point it was 2 whole years since he'd left the club. How on Earth did he have anything to do with this one? Investment was low because we'd pissed money away for 2 years and paid a fortune in compensation. It also took lambert a long time to find the right formation which I'm sure even you couldn't blame MON for.

I'm struggling to see how he's to blame for any of our relegation battles.

 

I never said he was entirely to blame, just that he must share some of the blame, as must Lerner, Houllier, McLeish and Lambert to varying extents. All actions have consequences, including O'Neill's. I don't know what's so hard to understand about that? His reckless spending (Lerner is also to blame for this) was what helped necessitate the spending cuts in the first place, which in turn have affected the club over the past few years.

More than happy to blame him for affecting the club. He definitely played a part in decisions that meant the club was always going to drop from the top 6 position.

But he's in no way to blame for any relegation battle that followed. Nothing to do with him at all.

[Mantis]

More than happy to blame him for affecting the club. He definitely played a part in decisions that meant the club was always going to drop from the top 6 position.

But he's in no way to blame for any relegation battle that followed. Nothing to do with him at all.

 

 

Can't you see that his spending had long-term consequences?

[StefanAVFC]

I think he was the first domino that pushed the others down.

[Morpheus]

 

unless we can show those players that we have the ambition to improve by investing more than we currently have been and i'm afraid thats why we couldn't keep a TEAM together with Barry, Milner, Downing and Young going elsewhere and you can go further back than that with Yorke.

 

 

But when we had Milner, Downing, Young and Barry we were spunking big money around all the time. We spent bloody 24 million on a striker when Young and Downing were here and that didn't make either stay. If that's not a ambitious amount of money, I really don't know what is.

 

Thats actually a very fair point but why did those players leave?

[bannedfromHandV]

Soooooo........Bent?

[P3te]

 

 

unless we can show those players that we have the ambition to improve by investing more than we currently have been and i'm afraid thats why we couldn't keep a TEAM together with Barry, Milner, Downing and Young going elsewhere and you can go further back than that with Yorke.

 

 

But when we had Milner, Downing, Young and Barry we were spunking big money around all the time. We spent bloody 24 million on a striker when Young and Downing were here and that didn't make either stay. If that's not a ambitious amount of money, I really don't know what is.

 

Thats actually a very fair point but why did those players leave?

 

All our high profile departures left to win things. And all won the league apart from Downing

[StefanAVFC]

Downing can't use 'a lack of ambition' because we'd just spent 24 million so his reasoning seems to be 'he's a word removed', especially considering 6th with Villa is still his highest finish.

 

Barry wanted to go to play CL football, and we spent a large amount net while he was here, so to say he left because we weren't spending enough seems a bit unfair.

 

Young going was fair enough. He left to play at a higher level. Nothing to do with money spent.

 

Milner is a weird one.

 

The level of spending was unsustainable then and it would be unsustainable now, but I don't think it had anything to do with those players leaving.

Edited August 15, 2013 by StefanAVFC

[Big_John_10]

More than happy to blame him for affecting the club. He definitely played a part in decisions that meant the club was always going to drop from the top 6 position.

But he's in no way to blame for any relegation battle that followed. Nothing to do with him at all.

Can't you see that his spending had long-term consequences?

And what were these? What's your evidence?

Because I really don't see any to support you.

Nzogbia, Hutton, Ireland, Bent, Given and Makoun were all given good contracts. Seriously go and have a look at the total amount we spent on transfer fees and wages over the 2 years he left and then add £16 million that got paid in compensation to managers.

The serious spending cuts came 2 years after he left. If his actions were so bad then houllier and Mcleish would have been as limited as lambert was when it came to offering wages. But they weren't.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Big_John_10

[Mantis]

 

And what were these? What's your evidence?

Because I really don't see any to support you.

Nzogbia, Hutton, Ireland, Bent, Given and Makoun were all given good contracts. Seriously go and have a look at the total amount we spent on transfer fees and wages over the 2 years he left and then add £16 million that got paid in compensation to managers.

The serious spending cuts came 2 years after he left. If his actions were so bad then houllier and Mcleish would have been as limited as lambert was when it came to offering wages. But they weren't.

 

 

Evidence? How about all those poor/mediocre players on big wages?

 

You keep on going on about the money spent since he left but how in any way does that excuse him for the mistakes he made himself? You seem to think I'm not aware of the amount we've wasted since he left.

[Big_John_10]

Evidence? How about all those poor/mediocre players on big wages?

Like who? Who was so bad that you could say yes that squad should be in a relegation battle? And as I've just shown those players did not force serious spending cuts. It was 2 years later when it happened. You seem to ignore that.

You keep on going on about the money spent since he left but how in any way does that excuse him for the mistakes he made himself?

It's proof that his mistakes did not effect the club as much as you make out.

[Big_John_10]

You seem to think I'm not aware of the amount we've wasted since he left.

So you're aware of the amount wasted but still blame him for being in relegation battles. How? You've just acknowledged that money was wasted once he left.

[PieFacE]

Open thread hoping for news that Bent has left.

 

Only to see more talk of MON.

 

And for that reason.... i'm out. 

[TRO]

 

 

 

 

 

I think the consequences that Mantis was talking about was the fact that our wage structure after that was clipped as the owner could not afford to keep bleeding money at the same rate.

We gave huge contracts to Nzogbia, Ireland, Hutton and Bent. We're going to lose a shit load of money on all of them.

It's no coincidence the things people blame MoN soley for continued for a couple more years.

I haven't seen anyone blame O'Neill solely for poor spending. Please, show me someone here who has.

So then it's not his fault it happened for 2 more years.

 

I never said the money wasted on the likes of Given, Hutton and N'Zogbia was his fault.

No you said battling relegation was.

Yet like you just said its not his fault how the money was spent after him.

Lets look at the 3 relegation battles.

1st one under houllier: Surely no sane person is going to argue that the squad he left was one destined for a relegation battle. We also smashed our transfer record 6 months after he left so investment wasn't a massive issue.

2nd one under Mcleish: Are you really going to take the blame away from Mcleish by suggesting somehow MoN was partly to blame? Again big contracts handed out to Hutton, given and Nzogbia show investment was still not a massive issue.

3rd one under Lambert: keep in mind by this point it was 2 whole years since he'd left the club. How on Earth did he have anything to do with this one? Investment was low because we'd pissed money away for 2 years and paid a fortune in compensation. It also took lambert a long time to find the right formation which I'm sure even you couldn't blame MON for.

I'm struggling to see how he's to blame for any of our relegation battles.

 

 

 

Just after O'Neill left we got Mauled at Newcastle conceding 6 goals under the stewardship of O'Neills trusty lieutenant Kevin McDonald who had worked closely with the manager.

 

......How can you say that we wasn't heading for a relegation battle under O'Neill.(did he know something?)....Houllier inherited his team, sure he has to take some blame but O'Neill COULD have had a similar season as Houllier.

[Mantis]

Like who? Who was so bad that you could say yes that squad should be in a relegation battle? And as I've just shown those players did not force serious spending cuts. It was 2 years later when it happened. You seem to ignore that.

Beye

Dunne

Collins

Warnock

Davies

Harewood

Sidwell

Reo-Coker

Cuellar

Salifou

 

And that's just the ones that were still here when he left.

It's proof that his mistakes did not effect the club as much as you make out.

No, it's proof that Lerner didn't immediately learn from his past mistakes.

 

So you're aware of the amount wasted but still blame him for being in relegation battles. How? You've just acknowledged that money was wasted once he left.

I've said all along that he's only partly to blame.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Mantis