snowychap Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 My point wasn't related to your comments particularly...You quoted my post.At the risk of repeating the second post you quoted, I don't find it strange that people lobby/call for/recommend increased spending (or anything else which they might view would make the job easier) in the areas in which they have a particular interest.I think that all those calls should be treated with a certain amount of suspicion - even more so when those calls carry an implicit threat.That doesn't mean that we should ignore the words of experts in their field (we're not Jacqui Smith/Louise Casey) but we certainly shouldn't accept their recommendations without question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 just an observation that people calling for increased defence spending seem to be viewed with more suspicion by the average layman than say, a medical professional. It's a tenuous comparison. AIDS was an obvious crisis that needed government funding to study and treat it. Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq was a crisis that was totally made up. Anyhow, I'd hope that most people would view people clamoring for money to be spent on war with more suspicion than those clamoring for money to be spent on life. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted October 8, 2014 Moderator Share Posted October 8, 2014 Like Britain before it, the US has tended to support radical Islam and to oppose secular nationalism, which both imperial states have regarded as more threatening to their goals of domination and control. When secular options are crushed, religious extremism often fills the vacuum. Furthermore, the primary US ally over the years, Saudi Arabia, is the most radical Islamist state in the world and also a missionary state, which uses its vast oil resources to promulgate its extremist Wahabi/Salafi doctrines by establishing schools, mosques, and in other ways, and has also been the primary source for the funding of radical Islamist groups, along with Gulf Emirates - all US allies. Noam Chomsky in a recent interview - I think that's nail on the head. It also goes some way to explaining why we're in no rush to stop them. What he says isn't really true though. The west has supported secular nationalism (or at least 'Islam light') in Turkey, Egypt, Iraq - until we didn't - and the Gulf States. Didn't we have wars with each of those countries until they put in a nice compliant dictatorial regime in place - it's hardly nationalism if the end result is somebody running a country for the benefit of their own bank balance and a touch of impunity in their domestic abuses whilst selling out their nations resources. Secular maybe - nationalist, I don't think so - maybe Turkey before Erdogan got brought to heel, but the others were always run by and for a nation with stars and stripes on their flag. Self determination and true independence is seen as a much greater enemy by those that decide on who we bomb and who we don't than IS are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted October 8, 2014 Moderator Share Posted October 8, 2014 just an observation that people calling for increased defence spending seem to be viewed with more suspicion by the average layman than say, a medical professional. It's a tenuous comparison. AIDS was an obvious crisis that needed government funding to study and treat it. Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq was a crisis that was totally made up. Anyhow, I'd hope that most people would view people clamoring for money to be spent on war with more suspicion than those clamoring for money to be spent on life. Fair comment. My perception was that the point in this instance about military spending is that the "expert" isn't a politician who lied about WMDs, he is someone from the military making a point that if we want the military to do more, then we/politicians maybe need to pay for that increased workload or capability. It's also easy to say the military is about "taking life", but in the instance of Syria, the calls have been about saving life via military intervention of various sorts. Sure, if you have people running round beheading, executing, blowing up civilians, then it may only be possible to stop it by force, but the primary call is to stop IS for humanitarian reasons, to stop hideous persecution on a massive scale. Of course all calls for more resources should be treated with a level of scepticism about vested or self interest, but equally in all fields there are people who can validly put their knowledge and experience to use to explain why they feel more funding is necessary. Then it can be judged whether it is justified or affordable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Good points, but when was the last time the man on the street had any influence on a vote to fund a war? I'm afraid the wheels on this one were put in motion years ago, and there's no stopping it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Surprised no one has mentioned the four arrests in London yesterday linked to an alleged beheading plot inspired by those lovely chaps in Syria & Iraq? Read that one of them is apparently an IS veteran who has returned from that conflict. Posting from a phone so getting a link up is a bit beyond my technical competence - apologies to MOD's. Yeah I saw that and thought about mentioning it but thought better of it as I thought it would like be dismissed as 'convenient' and a mechanism of our satanic overlords in Westminster stealing our civil liberties or some such like. Concerning and reassuring news really, concerning that these people are returning and seemingly plotting things on our soil and reassuring that the security services were watching. It will be interesting to see how and if the story develops, talking of which the story about the poor women who was beheaded in London seems to have been kept pretty quiet since the story first broke. PS - no link required if you aren't quoting something. Edit - more concerning is the fact that one of those arrested was a medical student which makes you wonder about the nature of the threat. Well in the case of the Sydney raids, the sword that was seized turned out to be made of plastic. It has however enabled the government to bring in new laws without too much opposition that can punish government whistle blowers with 10 years in prison and enable the metadata of every Australian on the Internet to be recorded and stored for two years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted October 8, 2014 Moderator Share Posted October 8, 2014 ...when was the last time the man on the street had any influence on a vote to fund a war? I'm afraid the wheels on this one were put in motion years ago, and there's no stopping it. Aye, true. Can't disagree. I think as well that the problem is "the man on the street" genuinely isn't best placed to make the decisions - sometimes, even most times, the complexity and potential consequences of action or inaction are not known, or understood by the man on the street. That said the politicians of all persuasions have made an almighty bollix of doing what we'd want. They're too hung ho, too keen to jump in with both feet. I suppose to an extent that goes back to the point about military people saying they need better resources (in the UK) - because they've been asked to satiate politicians desires to "win" with no casualties,with no bad PR, yet are hamstrung by the scale of the task and the equipment and numbers they have available. Personally, and this might sound odd, I'm pretty much against involving ourselves in other people's or nation's issues. I don't know really that we've made things better in the middle east, ever. Yes there's a moral case to say "we must stop people being slaughtered" - it's undeniable, but we're not capable politically or militarily of doing so. I'm not certain I'm right, i just haven;t been persuaded of any other view. Defence for me is protecting our country, not involving ourselves with others who do not fully invite us to. Tame leaders asking is not the same as a nation asking for help. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 (edited) Further to the Sydney raids, there is a second tranch of new laws being debated in Australia today giving Police 'secret warrants'. The police will be able to break into your house and search it. They don't have to present a warrant and don't even have to say they are Police. They can break in through a neighbours house if that makes things easier and to top it off, if any journalist reports on it they face 2 years in prison. Edited October 8, 2014 by LondonLax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 (edited) Binyamin Netanyahu 'chickenshit', say US officials in explosive interview - Quotes from senior Obama administration figures damn Israeli prime minister over stance on settlements and Palestinian peace Grauniad Edited October 29, 2014 by Xann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Obama will do a little dance today to try and smooth it over. He'll make a phone call to Netanyahu directly as well. The same slur could just as easily be applied to Obama himself with regards to the Palestine issue, Syria, Ukraine, the House GOP, the left wing of his own party, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikantcpell Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 This is just shocking..slave market in 2014 ? Havent we learned anything? http://youtu.be/tVISyjFwXAU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Makes you feel a bit sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 They seem like sewer rats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 The battle against IS in Syria isn't going well following the surrender to the Jihadis of two of the main US backed and armed opposition elements. The simple truth is that neither the Assad regime or the FSA aligned groups can defeat IS. Eventually the west will either have to destroy them in ground combat or accept a new country called the Islamic State with it's slave markets, rape factories and slaughter houses. It's a pretty safe bet that sooner or later "we" are going back to war in the Middle East. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 I'm sure there already are Army Rangers up there now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted November 5, 2014 Moderator Share Posted November 5, 2014 Sadly The battle against IS in Syria isn't going well following the surrender to the Jihadis of two of the main US backed and armed opposition elements. The simple truth is that neither the Assad regime or the FSA aligned groups can defeat IS. Eventually the west will either have to destroy them in ground combat or accept a new country called the Islamic State with it's slave markets, rape factories and slaughter houses. It's a pretty safe bet that sooner or later "we" are going back to war in the Middle East. Sadly these seems to be almost inevitable and I'm not sure that we have a great deal of choice given that IS can't be allowed the full apparatus of a state. If we ignore that risk we face repeating the mistakes of the past when we tried to appease Nazi Germany. Ground forces are needed and always have been sadly the political will to really do what is needed is lacking on both sides of the Atlantic it seems. Elections must be looking but once they are over then I expect things to escalate rather rapidly. I hate to think what the terms/consequences of surrender to IS would be. So it's now Assad v IS, looks like te US might have to start backing a new horse in Syria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islingtonclaret Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Sadly The battle against IS in Syria isn't going well following the surrender to the Jihadis of two of the main US backed and armed opposition elements. So it's now Assad v IS, Have I missed something? When did the FSA and Pershmerga/Syrian Kurds surrender? Haven't a contingent of FSA and Turkish Kurds arrived in Kobane and pushed IS back?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted November 5, 2014 Moderator Share Posted November 5, 2014 That is what I thought too but I did some searching online (can't provide a link right now) following AWOL's post and it seems while they are Kobane things have taken a turn for the worse in Syria although not sure surrender is the right word, more they seem to have fled. AWOL typically has a superb handle on this stuff so anything he posts in terms of information or updates is just about always on the money. Or at least I've always found it to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 There was a journalist reporting out of Kobane a night or two ago. She claimed to be in the town and seeing the situation first hand. Her report suggested IS had about 60 / 70% of the town, about 10% was no man's land, leaving a token 20 - 30% preventing IS being able to say they'd taken the town. It's all a little bit shit this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islingtonclaret Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 How is this not making the news? IS are again are on the cusp of taking the town and the media aren't bothered this time round? I wish the Turks would roll those tanks down the hill and batter the shit out those nutters but it ain't gonna happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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