maqroll Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Trotted out by many is the line about defending our freedom(s) as much as our person(s) with the often implicit (though sometimes explicit) caveat that, of course, we might need to temporarily and for some certain types of people set them aside a bit (or more). Yep, it's a slippery slope, and once the custodians of free societies throw away their handbooks and become agents of surveillance states, we've lost the "war on terror"... We have to hope that the Australians acted within the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 This article is a pretty good summation of a lot of my suspicions about this case. The timing has all been too perfect. Sydney dawn counter-terrorism raids: why now, and why so few answers? Journalists were recruited to cover anti-terrorism dawn-raids, and lapped it up with no questions asked – it seems large media organisations are willing to be played like a trout A solitary intercepted phone call, over 800 police bursting into homes in Sydney and Brisbane, hovering helicopters, 15 arrested and detained, four charged. The charge against Omarjan Azari, aged 22, is conspiracy to prepare for a terrorist attack. The prosecution alleges, “there was a clear imperative to commit an act to shock, horrify and terrify the community as a whole”. The plan allegedly involved “random selection of persons to rather gruesomely execute”. Stripped of all the crypto-military flourishes and the connection with Islamic fundamentalism, the charge might have been conspiracy or solicit to murder, under section 26 Crimes Act, NSW. Another man was charged with firearms and ammunition offences and released on bail. Soon, the politicians were on the job. NSW premier Mike Baird, usually a pusillanimous sort of character, adopted George W Bush’s rhetoric: “We will hunt you down.” The prime minister, speaking in the Northern Territory before sending troops off to fight Isis in Iraq, has already found the charged man guilty: “So this is not just suspicion, this is intent.” We don’t actually know the details of the evidence against Azari, and because it is wrapped in the shroud of counter-terrorism some of the proceedings against him will be in-camera on the tenuous ground of national security. This could all have been achieved much more stealthily and proportionally, but that would have stripped the occasion of the opportunity for some serious theatre. The media were duly recruited and the major mainstream TV outlets supplied with footage of the commando-style operations, filmed and supplied by the police themselves. The police also helpfully supplied still shots of the action to the newspapers. Most of the media laps this up with its ears back as willing pawns in the politics of terror drama – a readiness to be used by the very governments which go to extraordinary lengths to deprive journalists and the public of information. The secrecy surrounding Operation Sovereign Borders is an obvious example, where details are only ever released if it suits the government. It seems large and supposedly influential media organisations are quite willing to be played like a trout. As British politician Aneurin Bevan put it rather wonderfully when talking about Fleet Street, censorship and political patronage during the time of the Attlee government: “There is absolutely no need to muzzle sheep.” If a little scepticism was applied, questions would be asked as to why we had this sudden splash of commando bombast when this particular group in Sydney had been under surveillance since May. Suddenly it is crystallised into the need for immediate action – no questions asked. Why, for instance, did it take so long to twig to the fact that there was a $9m discrepancy in the funds that had been sent by a Lakemba money transfer business to the Middle East? That was the undisclosed amount that headed to “high terrorism financing risk jurisdictions” – and had been going on since January. The Sydney Morning Herald revealed on Monday that the the armed wing of the PKK, which Australia has designated as a terrorism organisation, is working alongside the Kurdish Peshmerga forces which simultaneously Australia is arming. If our media sleuths had a nose for this, they might try and cut through the rhetoric and work out whether the relevant security agencies have really been on the ball. Needless to say, the intelligence that formed the basis of the raised raids in Sydney and Brisbane on Thursday was gathered without the need to retain the entire nation’s metadata for two years. “Right now is a time for calm,” said the NSW police commissioner Andrew Scipione. “We don’t need to whip this up.” However, the message the politicians were trying to get across was, “Now’s the time for you to be desperately anxious.” The Navy at Garden Island spent this morning blaring “alert ... alert ... alert” throughout the neighbourhood, accompanied by various head-splitting whoops and sirens. As a result, moderate mainstream Muslims have been put in a dreadful position, with raucous elements of the media and the population beating-up the unrest. This will be a real test to see that Australia’s peaceful multicultural cohesion is not hijacked. In the meantime, only when a court determines the weight of the actual evidence still being gathered will we be in a better position to know what Azari has been up to. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/19/sydney-dawn-counter-terrorism-raids-why-now-and-why-so-few-answers 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 In the meantime, only when a court determines the weight of the actual evidence still being gathered will we be in a better position to know what Azari has been up to. And know if the manner in which the raids were conducted was appropriate. I'm willing to give law enforcement the benefit of the doubt on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 (edited) I'm willing to give law enforcement the benefit of the doubt on this one.Where do you draw a line?40 years after she gets shoved off the bus? Edited September 20, 2014 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Where do you draw a line? At illegality. 40 years after she gets shoved off the bus? I don't know what this is referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 (edited) Where do you draw a line?At illegality.Well, haven't you wrapped yourself up in a nice blanket?If the law allows it, then it is legal... Edited September 20, 2014 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 (edited) In the meantime, only when a court determines the weight of the actual evidence still being gathered will we be in a better position to know what Azari has been up to. And know if the manner in which the raids were conducted was appropriate. NO NO NO! How guilty or otherwise after the event (perhaps behind closed doors - for the best 'results' of the citizens) determines how legal/constitutional police raids are? Edited September 20, 2014 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 (edited) Assuming this whole episode sees the light of a courtroom(s) (and clearly it will), police tactics will be called into question, especially if there are people who feel aggrieved at police action. When else would the outcome of the tactics of these particular raids be assessed? I'm sure the raids in theory were legal/constitutional, that the police had probable cause, went to a magistrate for a warrant, etc., so whatever case they have against this guy can actually be heard without being tossed due to lack of proper police procedure. What is possibly in question are the tactics used in the raids, and whether they were over-the-top. What better place than a courtroom to determine that? Edited September 20, 2014 by maqroll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Where do you draw a line? At illegality. Well, haven't you wrapped yourself up in a nice blanket? If the law allows it, then it is legal... Sure, blanket, whatever. I'm not speaking in general terms, here. I'm speaking of this case. There has been a massive influx of foreign fighters to IS, dozens of whom are confirmed Aussies. Australian intelligence determined that illegality was imminent, and acted to thwart it. In this instance, I'm willing to give law enforcement the benefit of the doubt. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendelc Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Absolutely . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ads Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 What are the allegations against the Aussie police here? What have those conducted the raid supposed to have done wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 What are the allegations against the Aussie police here? What have those conducted the raid supposed to have done wrong?There are none (at least from my part) as I don't know the details of what went on - actually, I suppose there is one: that they appear unwilling to give details (i.e. under what laws people are being detained, even numbers of those being detained, &c.).Mine was a general point about laws (mainly counter terrorist ones over the past couple of decades) being drafted to allow the kind of action by 'authorities' that people are happy to see happen as long as it is taken against 'guilty types' (i.e. not them). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 There have been alligations that the police were heavy handed, a guy came out with a black eye, a Muslim woman says she was pulled out of her bed in her underwear, a little kid was thrown into a radiator. It's that kind of thing that got the community up in arms against the police. The big question is whether it was justified or politically motivated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 800 officers to arrest 15 people? Yeah, that doesn't sound politically motivated at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 (edited) Oh, and now we have this, quelle surprise. It's almost as if the whole thing was planned... Substantial new powers of arrest for police officers under proposed amendments to anti-terrorism laws BY THE NATIONAL REPORTING TEAM'S MARK SOLOMONS AND STATE POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT MATT WORDSWORTH Draft amendments include a significant lowering of the threshold applying to police officers when considering whether to arrest someone for terrorism offences without a warrant. Police officers would get substantial new powers of arrest under proposed amendments to anti-terror laws. The ABC has seen draft amendments to a range of legislation including the Criminal Code and Crimes Act. A much anticipated package of reforms to terrorism laws is set to be introduced into Federal Parliament early next week. The draft amendments seen by the ABC include a significant lowering of the threshold applying to police officers when considering whether to arrest someone for terrorism offences without a warrant. Under the proposed changes, police officers would need only to "suspect on reasonable grounds" that a person has committed or is committing a terrorism offence. Do you know more about this story? Email investigations@abc.net.au Laws in place since the mid-1990s have required officers to "believe on reasonable grounds" that this was the case, which carries a higher legal standard of proof. VIDEO 2:29 New powers for police under proposed anti-terror law amendments 7PM TV NEWS QLD The amendments also would make it easier for authorities to apply for control orders, intended to prevent terrorist acts by restricting the movement or activities of certain people, such as forcing them to wear an electronic tag or making them report regularly to police. Under the current law a senior member of the Australian Federal Police can apply to the Attorney-General for such an order only when they "consider on reasonable grounds" that people have been involved in terrorism activities overseas. Under the proposed amendment, they would only need to "suspect" that this had taken place. Other planned changes include new provisions allowing the Government to enforce three-week suspensions of the passports of Australians who are suspected to be planning to "prejudice the security of Australia or a foreign country". The Drum: Analysis and Opinion Expand Also proposed are new laws to better keep track of terrorist organisations, such as when they change their name, and a provision for it to be made illegal for Australians to travel to certain places overseas except to do humanitarian or government work. These banned areas could be smaller than entire countries or even straddle national borders. Attorney-General George Brandis said this afternoon in Brisbane that ASIO and the AFP had expressed a "high level of satisfaction" with the proposed legislation, but the AFP had asked the Government for amendments to allow "expedited control orders". He provided no details of the proposed amendments. "The Australian people expect the Government to act strongly here," Senator Brandis said. "They don't expect to see us mucking around." Justice Minister Michael Keenan, in an ABC interview this morning, said there would be "an enormous number of safeguards" in the legislation, without providing details. http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-20/new-powers-for-police-under-proposed-anti-terror-laws-amendments/5758178 Edited September 20, 2014 by LondonLax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 It sounds almost too similar to the Forest Gate raid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 I watched a video someone posted on Facebook earlier, absolutely horrific. Claims to be from ISIS. Basically a group of guys in a car in Iraq (I assume). Guy in the back and guy in the passenger seat both armed with machine guns gunning down all that that see. People walking along the side of the road etc. They'd pull up along side other cars and fire their guns at the occupants, if the car stopped and the survivors tried to make a run for it they went after them and killed them at point blank range with their AK's. Truly shocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Surely a video like that would've made the news? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ads Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 I posted a link to it a few pages back. The vast majority of IS atrocities are unreported in the Western media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 I watched a video someone posted on Facebook earlier, absolutely horrific. Claims to be from ISIS. Basically a group of guys in a car in Iraq (I assume). Guy in the back and guy in the passenger seat both armed with machine guns gunning down all that that see. People walking along the side of the road etc. They'd pull up along side other cars and fire their guns at the occupants, if the car stopped and the survivors tried to make a run for it they went after them and killed them at point blank range with their AK's. Truly shocking. yeah i saw it a few months ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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