The Arab Spring and "the War on Terror"

[Risso]

My opinion is that extremism is a vehicle for a political or social means as much as religious in this instance. Without the poverty and inequality perhaps extremism is less likely to take grip. There are always going to be a minority of nutters out there and that's what these foreign fighters are really. They've probably been marginalised and feel alienated in western society so seek affiliation with a group that can give them a sense of purpose. I do think the issues are deep rooted but in the context of things, extremism in the UK is not widespread, but it is enough of an issue to take seriously.

Extremism isn't a Muslim thing, it's a human thing. Unfortunately IS stain the good name of Islam to commit atrocities.

 

There does seem to be more of a problem with extremism based on Islam than any other sect though.

[peterms]

My opinion is that extremism is a vehicle for a political or social means as much as religious in this instance. Without the poverty and inequality perhaps extremism is less likely to take grip. There are always going to be a minority of nutters out there and that's what these foreign fighters are really. They've probably been marginalised and feel alienated in western society so seek affiliation with a group that can give them a sense of purpose. I do think the issues are deep rooted but in the context of things, extremism in the UK is not widespread, but it is enough of an issue to take seriously.

Extremism isn't a Muslim thing, it's a human thing. Unfortunately IS stain the good name of Islam to commit atrocities.

 

There does seem to be more of a problem with extremism based on Islam than any other sect though.

From another perspective, you could view the psychopathic acts of the Greeks, Romans, Huns, Crusaders, Germans, Russians, Brits and Yanks as equally extreme but more prolific.

If you're looking for an exact equivalent today, I offer you the genocidal torturers who constitute and support the Israeli state.

[peterms]

[Glarmorgan]

PeterMS - you are obsessed with your hatred towards Israel. Homosexuals in Gaza are hanged, Non Sunni-Muslims in Iraq and Syria are decapitated, with entire communities massacred only for not being Sunni. The Syrian civil war cost the lives of hundreds of thousands. The Christian minority in the West Bank is slowly being driven out by their Muslim neighbors. The same happens in Egypt. Lebanon is in relative turmoil, with the Hizbulla holding a stronger army than the government - sending this army to fight in Syria, for Syria, while their leader keeps threatening Israel, without any cause whatsoever, knowing that in case of war - Israel's retaliation will bring death and suffer for Lebanon.

 

But Israel is the problem. The only state in the Middle East where the Arabs enjoy full democracy, with a total religious freedom, with a complete freedom of speech.

 

By the way - Gilad Sharon is indeed Ariel Sharon's son. He has never been elected to the parliament, has never taken a public office. He is important no more than I am. Do you wish to make a flier with my picture as well? 

[peterms]

PeterMS - you are obsessed with your hatred towards Israel. Homosexuals in Gaza are hanged, Non Sunni-Muslims in Iraq and Syria are decapitated, with entire communities massacred only for not being Sunni. The Syrian civil war cost the lives of hundreds of thousands. The Christian minority in the West Bank is slowly being driven out by their Muslim neighbors. The same happens in Egypt. Lebanon is in relative turmoil, with the Hizbulla holding a stronger army than the government - sending this army to fight in Syria, for Syria, while their leader keeps threatening Israel, without any cause whatsoever, knowing that in case of war - Israel's retaliation will bring death and suffer for Lebanon.

 

But Israel is the problem. The only state in the Middle East where the Arabs enjoy full democracy, with a total religious freedom, with a complete freedom of speech.

 

By the way - Gilad Sharon is indeed Ariel Sharon's son. He has never been elected to the parliament, has never taken a public office. He is important no more than I am. Do you wish to make a flier with my picture as well?

If you weren't so obsessed with your lying Hasbara propaganda shite, and had noticed what I've actually posted on this site over the course of many years, you would see that I have criticised extremist violence in many forms. That doesn't suit your predetermined agenda though, so you don't recognise it.

Perhaps your next move will be to accuse me of antisemitism. That seems to be part of the game the Israeli supporters online play.

By the way, this stuff about Arabs enjoying full rights in Israel is just utter bollocks. You are either deluded, or deliberately lying. Educate yourself if it's the former, or get out if it's the latter.

[OutByEaster?]

 

Surely at some point, we'll realise that the only sensible approach is the less profitable one of removing arms from the region rather than arming each group in turn during the period in which they are our friends/have money?

Aside from the difficulties of telling nation states that WE won't allow them to have weapons, we'd have to use an awful lot of force to disarm the Middle East, and kill an awful lot of people. I'm not really sure that's the outcome you're looking for?

 

 

WE are very much responsible for telling nation states which of them can and can't have weapons. At the moment, we're killing an awful lot of people anyway, I'd be more comfortable if the goal of that process was a more peaceful middle east in the long term rather than profit.

 

I know it's a pipe dream, but we seem to have lost sight of some very basic principles in the middle east - namely that stopping people killing each other, both in the short and long term, and increasing dialogue between all of the parties should be our aim - not making a quick buck and helping whoever we're friends with at the time kill more than whoever we're not friends with.

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

ISIS (apparently) beheaded James Foley, a journalist.

 

There is a video online, but I ain't got the stomach for it.

 

Barbaric scum.

[Ikantcpell]

I just watched the video and i wish i hadn't, they are not humans, they are worse than wild animals..I hope USA bomb them to smithereens cause i feel insulted just by living on the same planet as them!

[villarule123]

Horrible video, at least they cut it off just before it happens.

Sad bastards, must have such a shity life to stoop that low. Hopefully one day we will completely wipe them all off the face of the earth. Sadly, there will always be nutters in the world

[Awol]

And the executioner had a clear British accent.

The poor dear probably felt marginalised by UK society.

EDIT: General sarcasm and not aimed at Pompey, just in case it read that way.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Awol

[Davkaus]

Horrible video, at least they cut it off just before it happens.

Sad bastards, must have such a shity life to stoop that low. Hopefully one day we will completely wipe them all off the face of the earth. Sadly, there will always be nutters in the world

 

 

If there's one thing we should have learned from US/UK foreign policy over the last couple of decades, it's that for every one of them we kill, we encourage many times that number to take up their cause, some even in our own country. Wiping them off the face of the earth isn't going to happen.Maybe ISIS can be overthrown, but they weren't around 18 months ago when British mentalists used Islam as a justification for murdering a British soldier in Woolwich, so I don't think it's going to solve the problem.

[Awol]

This is an interesting read and sheds some light on the debate further up the page about whether this whole thing is religiously driven or more social/political/economic.

 

ISIS: Public Legitimacy Through the Reenactment of Islam’s Early History

The Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS), or the Levant (Lost in Translation), is re-enacting the early history of Islam in order to establish its legitimacy with the peoples of the Middle East. This may be a powerful tactic, and U.S. policy makers must tune their ears to what the legitimating symbolism used by ISIS says.

In a series of essays entitled Theopolitical Imagination, William Cavanaugh reminds us of the critical role which the imagination plays in constructing political power. “How,” he asks, “does a provincial farm boy became persuaded that he must travel as a solider to another part of the world?”….

[maqroll]

ISIS have apparently beheaded and American freelance journalist who had been missing for almost 2 years. It's all on video apparently.

[MakemineVanilla]

 

PeterMS - you are obsessed with your hatred towards Israel. Homosexuals in Gaza are hanged, Non Sunni-Muslims in Iraq and Syria are decapitated, with entire communities massacred only for not being Sunni. The Syrian civil war cost the lives of hundreds of thousands. The Christian minority in the West Bank is slowly being driven out by their Muslim neighbors. The same happens in Egypt. Lebanon is in relative turmoil, with the Hizbulla holding a stronger army than the government - sending this army to fight in Syria, for Syria, while their leader keeps threatening Israel, without any cause whatsoever, knowing that in case of war - Israel's retaliation will bring death and suffer for Lebanon.

 

But Israel is the problem. The only state in the Middle East where the Arabs enjoy full democracy, with a total religious freedom, with a complete freedom of speech.

 

By the way - Gilad Sharon is indeed Ariel Sharon's son. He has never been elected to the parliament, has never taken a public office. He is important no more than I am. Do you wish to make a flier with my picture as well?

If you weren't so obsessed with your lying Hasbara propaganda shite, and had noticed what I've actually posted on this site over the course of many years, you would see that I have criticised extremist violence in many forms. That doesn't suit your predetermined agenda though, so you don't recognise it.

Perhaps your next move will be to accuse me of antisemitism. That seems to be part of the game the Israeli supporters online play.

By the way, this stuff about Arabs enjoying full rights in Israel is just utter bollocks. You are either deluded, or deliberately lying. Educate yourself if it's the former, or get out if it's the latter.

 

 

But aren't these two counter-accusations exactly equivalent in the way they are used?

 

Everything one side disagrees with is branded Hasbara propaganda.

 

Everything the other side disagrees with is branded as anti-Semitism.

 

The use of either brings the discussion to an end and just amounts to an ad hominem attack.

 

The argument is really about whether either side can justify its actions by an appeal to just war theory. 

 

In my view the Catholic church have the best set of criteria to judge whether a war is just or not:

 

• the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
• all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
• there must be serious prospects of success;
• the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated (the power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition).

 

It is embarrassing for a secularist to have to borrow from religion but it seems like a much sounder position to judge Israel's actions from than counter-productive abusive censure.

Edited August 20, 2014 by MakemineVanilla

[snowychap]

• the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated (the power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition).

The biggest problem here, as elsewhere within religion, is the belief in omniscience, surely?

[PompeyVillan]

IS have another American hostage, and are clearly willing to behead them too.

I have no evidence, of course, but my feeling is that British and American special forces are heavily involved in this conflict. Any further escalation by IS may give America enough public support to get further involved, militarily.

The whole situation is a depressing mess.

RIP James Foley.

[Awol]

I have no evidence, of course, but my feeling is that British and American special forces are heavily involved in this conflict.

Indeed. It's not the Kurds calling in US air strikes.

I'm afraid the other American chap will also meet a grizzly end, best to hope for is that they don't crucify him - as IS are fond of doing to Christians.

[Risso]

ISIS (apparently) beheaded James Foley, a journalist.

 

There is a video online, but I ain't got the stomach for it.

 

Barbaric scum.

 

Slightly off-topic, but I've never understood how people can bring themselves to watch stuff like that. 

[Rodders]

agreed, I remember accidentally viewing one when I was about 15 and the image still comes back to my mind now, 14 years later especially with current news stories as they are. Horrific stuff.

[Ads]

 

I have no evidence, of course, but my feeling is that British and American special forces are heavily involved in this conflict.

Indeed. It's not the Kurds calling in US air strikes.

I'm afraid the other American chap will also meet a grizzly end, best to hope for is that they don't crucify him - as IS are fond of doing to Christians.

 

 

 

As grissly and appalling as this is, the head chopping has been going on pretty much non-stop for the past two months in Iraq and some of the things happened in Raqqa in Syria are equally beyond the pale.

 

The air campaign had already been widened before this to include defneding vital infrastructure, so I don't see Barry being moved to actually putting boots back on the ground despite how grim this sort of thing is.