The Arab Spring and "the War on Terror"

[Awol]

This is a short interview held with one Colonel Richard Kemp of the British army of the Gaza situation. 5 minute interview. This clip auto plays, but I managed to play it only on Internet Explorer (the horror!!!).

http://news.walla.co.il/?w=/2689/2769050

I'm one of those on here who believes Israel has an absolute right to defend itself in the face of rocket attacks from Gaza. What I find revolting is the IDF's willingness to target known refugee centres with artillery, in the full knowledge they are packed with women and children. That puts them on a level with the Taliban, AQ, Shabab and all the other nasties out there in terms of sheer psychopathy.

If they want to go after the launch sites then do it with infantry and accept the casualties on your side to save the lives of innocents on the other. Before you ask whether "we" would do that the answer is yes, hence coalition casualty rates in Afghan.

You're a first world, democratic nation with professional armed forces. For **** sake, starting acting like it!

EDIT: due to peer pressure :-)

Edited July 25, 2014 by Awol

[blandy]

 

This is a short interview held with one Colonel Richard Kemp of the British army of the Gaza situation. 5 minute interview. This clip auto plays, but I managed to play it only on Internet Explorer (the horror!!!).

http://news.walla.co.il/?w=/2689/2769050

I'm one of the few on here who believes Israel has an absolute right to defend itself in the face of rocket attacks from Gaza. What I find revolting is the IDF's willingness to target known refugee centres with artillery, in the full knowledge they are packed with women and children. That puts them on a level with the Taliban, AQ, Shabab and all the other nasties out there in terms of sheer psychopathy.

If they want to go after the launch sites then do it with infantry and accept the casualties on your side to save the lives of innocents on the other. Before you ask whether "we" would do that the answer is yes, hence coalition casualty rates in Afghan.

You're a first world, democratic nation with professional armed forces. For **** sake, starting acting like it!

 

I liked your post, but my perception is that your fist sentence "I'm one of the few on here who believes Israel has an absolute right to defend itself in the face of rocket attacks from Gaza" is completely wrong. I get the feeling just about everyone feels that Israel has a right (and duty) to prevent and defend against the rocket attacks from hamas.

The bit I agreed with was You're a first world, democratic nation with professional armed forces. For **** sake, starting acting like it!

 

The vast vast majority of the condemnation everywhere is about what they actually do, over and over again, which is essentially collective punishment, war crimes, massacres and so on. Hospitals, schools, shelters, kids on beaches, the UN, water treatment works - these are not legitimate targets.

[chrisp65]

 

This is a short interview held with one Colonel Richard Kemp of the British army of the Gaza situation. 5 minute interview. This clip auto plays, but I managed to play it only on Internet Explorer (the horror!!!).

http://news.walla.co.il/?w=/2689/2769050

I'm one of the few on here who believes Israel has an absolute right to defend itself in the face of rocket attacks from Gaza. What I find revolting is the IDF's willingness to target known refugee centres with artillery, in the full knowledge they are packed with women and children. That puts them on a level with the Taliban, AQ, Shabab and all the other nasties out there in terms of sheer psychopathy.

If they want to go after the launch sites then do it with infantry and accept the casualties on your side to save the lives of innocents on the other. Before you ask whether "we" would do that the answer is yes, hence coalition casualty rates in Afghan.

You're a first world, democratic nation with professional armed forces. For **** sake, starting acting like it!

 

 

A good post, but the opening line is bollocks.

Feel free to name the majority that don't believe Israel has the right to defend itself.

 

 

As I was watching the news last night and looking at the pictures of small snot and blood covered boys crying in the corridor of a hospital, I wondered if it would come as a surprise to Israel in 8 or 9 years time when those kids pick up where their fathers, uncles and brothers left off.

 

By the same token, the disgusting interview far far away in a pleasant and secure safe house with the 'leader' of Hamas was stomach churning. I think he grinned through the whole interview whilst promising all his fighters were good boys obeying the rules.

[Awol]

This is a short interview held with one Colonel Richard Kemp of the British army of the Gaza situation. 5 minute interview. This clip auto plays, but I managed to play it only on Internet Explorer (the horror!!!).

http://news.walla.co.il/?w=/2689/2769050

I'm one of the few on here who believes Israel has an absolute right to defend itself in the face of rocket attacks from Gaza. What I find revolting is the IDF's willingness to target known refugee centres with artillery, in the full knowledge they are packed with women and children. That puts them on a level with the Taliban, AQ, Shabab and all the other nasties out there in terms of sheer psychopathy.

If they want to go after the launch sites then do it with infantry and accept the casualties on your side to save the lives of innocents on the other. Before you ask whether "we" would do that the answer is yes, hence coalition casualty rates in Afghan.

You're a first world, democratic nation with professional armed forces. For **** sake, starting acting like it!

I liked your post, but my perception is that your fist sentence "I'm one of the few on here who believes Israel has an absolute right to defend itself in the face of rocket attacks from Gaza" is completely wrong. I get the feeling just about everyone feels that Israel has a right (and duty) to prevent and defend against the rocket attacks from hamas.

That's not the impression I get from reading this thread, but maybe you're right.

Where we obviously agree is that even for those who do hold that opinion it's impossible to condone what Israel is doing in Gaza in response.

What is also obvious is the extent to which they don't give a feck.

[TrentVilla]

 

This is a short interview held with one Colonel Richard Kemp of the British army of the Gaza situation. 5 minute interview. This clip auto plays, but I managed to play it only on Internet Explorer (the horror!!!).

http://news.walla.co.il/?w=/2689/2769050

I'm one of the few on here who believes Israel has an absolute right to defend itself in the face of rocket attacks from Gaza. What I find revolting is the IDF's willingness to target known refugee centres with artillery, in the full knowledge they are packed with women and children. That puts them on a level with the Taliban, AQ, Shabab and all the other nasties out there in terms of sheer psychopathy.

If they want to go after the launch sites then do it with infantry and accept the casualties on your side to save the lives of innocents on the other. Before you ask whether "we" would do that the answer is yes, hence coalition casualty rates in Afghan.

You're a first world, democratic nation with professional armed forces. For **** sake, starting acting like it!

 

 

One point of order on an otherwise excellent post, I don't think many if any don't think Israel has a right to defend itself.

 

Edit - having read on in the thread clearly I'm not the only one who took issue with that line.

[tonyh29]

 

 

 

Hopefully Israel will confront Isis further on down the line .

In order for Israel to deal with ISIS - Jordan has to be conquered by ISIS first. I assume that if Jordan will be attacked, US will act and I will not be too surprised if a couple of Israeli airplanes will aid the cause.

No oil in Jordan so doubt the US will get involved

Jordan is a key ally, both US and UK would deploy troops if they were in serious trouble - and it's got cock all to do with oil.

 

t'was a joke

 

I'm fully aware of the patriot missiles and F-16's the US currently keep there

[omariqy]

It Turns Out Hamas Didn’t Kidnap and Kill the 3 Israeli Teens After All http://nym.ag/1pgXp14 via @intelligencer

DAILY INTELLIGENCERMIDDLE EAST PEACE

July 25, 2014 4:14 p.m.

It Turns Out Hamas Didn’t Kidnap and Kill the 3 Israeli Teens After All

By Katie Zavadski

Photo: Mohamed Farag/Anadolu Agency/Getty Images

When the bodies of three Israeli teenagers, kidnapped in the West Bank, were found late last month, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did not mince words. "Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay," he said, initiating a campaign that eventually escalated into the present conflict in the region.

But now, officials admit the kidnappings were not Hamas's handiwork after all.

Non-plagiarizing BuzzFeed writer Sheera Frenkel was among the first to suggest that it was unlikely that Hamas was behind the deaths of Gilad Shaar, Naftali Frenkel, and Eyal Yifrach. Citing Palestinian sources and experts the field, Frenkel reported that kidnapping three Israeli teens would be a foolish move for Hamas. International experts told her it was likely the work of a local group, acting without concern for the repercussions:

[Gershon Baskin] pointed out that Hamas has earlier this month signed an agreement to form a unity government with Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, bridging, for the first time in seven years, the Palestinian leadership in the West Bank and Gaza.

“They will lose their reconciliation agreement with Abbas if they do take responsibility for [the kidnappings],” Baskin added.

Today, she was proven right:

Repeated inconsistencies in Israeli descriptions of the situation have sparked debate over whether Israel wanted to provoke Hamas into a confrontation. Israeli intelligence is also said to have known that the boys were dead shortly after they disappeared, but to have maintained public optimism about their safe return to beef up support from the Jewish diaspora. Writing for Al Jazeera, Musa al-Gharbi argued that Israel was deliberately provoking Hamas:

All the illegal and immoral actions related to Operation Brother’s Keeper were justified under the premise of finding and saving the missing teens whom the Israeli government knew to be dead — cynically exploiting the tragedy to whip up public outcry in order to provoke and then confront Hamas. This pattern of deception continues under the ongoing military offensive in Gaza. For example, last week in collaboration with Egyptian President Abdel Fattah El Sisi and Abbas, in its efforts to alienate Hamas, Israel announced a bad-faith cease-fire proposal, which Hamas was not consulted on and never agreed to but whose violation supposedly justified Israel’s expansion and intensification of the military campaign into Gaza.

Despite continued negotiations, the violence shows no signs of letting up, and after Thursday night's massive protests in the West Bank, there is still no ceasefire agreement. On Friday, it became clear that U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry's attempts to broker a seven-day truce were rejected by Israeli officials. Instead, Israel will apparently widen its ground operation in the Gaza Strip, despite international outcry about the civilian death toll. According to unnamed officials, the proposed truce was too generous to Hamas's demands.

Hamas, meanwhile, still hasn't weighed in on the agreement, whose details are being kept secret, but continued to launch rockets into Israel. International peace talks are set to resume in France this weekend, and we're keeping our fingers crossed.

[omariqy]

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/jul/09/israel-war-gaza-palestine-natural-gas-energy-crisis

IDF's Gaza assault is to control Palestinian gas, avert Israeli energy crisis

Israel's defence minister has confirmed that military plans to 'uproot Hamas' are about dominating Gaza's gas reserves

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A Palestinian boy plays in the rubble of a house destroyed in an Israeli air strike on Beit Hanoun, Gaza. Photograph: Khalil Hamra/AP

Yesterday, Israeli defence minister and former Israeli Defence Force (IDF) chief of staff Moshe Ya'alon announced that Operation Protective Edge marks the beginning of a protracted assault on Hamas. The operation "won't end in just a few days," he said, adding that "we are preparing to expand the operation by all means standing at our disposal so as to continue striking Hamas."

This morning, he said:

"We continue with strikes that draw a very heavy price from Hamas. We are destroying weapons, terror infrastructures, command and control systems, Hamas institutions, regime buildings, the houses of terrorists, and killing terrorists of various ranks of command… The campaign against Hamas will expand in the coming days, and the price the organization will pay will be very heavy."

But in 2007, a year before Operation Cast Lead, Ya'alon's concerns focused on the 1.4 trillion cubic feet of natural gas discovered in 2000 off the Gaza coast, valued at $4 billion. Ya'alon dismissed the notion that "Gaza gas can be a key driver of an economically more viable Palestinian state" as "misguided." The problem, he said, is that:

"Proceeds of a Palestinian gas sale to Israel would likely not trickle down to help an impoverished Palestinian public. Rather, based on Israel's past experience, the proceeds will likely serve to fund further terror attacks against Israel…

A gas transaction with the Palestinian Authority [PA] will, by definition, involve Hamas. Hamas will either benefit from the royalties or it will sabotage the project and launch attacks against Fatah, the gas installations, Israel – or all three… It is clear that without an overall military operation to uproot Hamas control of Gaza, no drilling work can take place without the consent of the radical Islamic movement."

Operation Cast Lead did not succeed in uprooting Hamas, but the conflict did take the lives of 1,387 Palestinians (773 of whom were civilians) and 9 Israelis (3 of whom were civilians).

Since the discovery of oil and gas in the Occupied Territories, resource competition has increasingly been at the heart of the conflict, motivated largely by Israel's increasing domestic energy woes.

Mark Turner, founder of the Research Journalism Initiative, reported that the siege of Gaza and ensuing military pressure was designed to "eliminate" Hamas as "a viable political entity in Gaza" to generate a "political climate" conducive to a gas deal. This involved rehabilitating the defeated Fatah as the dominant political player in the West Bank, and "leveraging political tensions between the two parties, arming forces loyal to Abbas and the selective resumption of financial aid."

Ya'alon's comments in 2007 illustrate that the Israeli cabinet is not just concerned about Hamas – but concerned that if Palestinians develop their own gas resources, the resulting economic transformation could in turn fundamentally increase Palestinian clout.

Meanwhile, Israel has made successive major discoveries in recent years - such as the Leviathan field estimated to hold 18 trillion cubic feet of natural gas – which could transform the country from energy importer into aspiring energy exporter with ambitions to supply Europe, Jordan and Egypt. A potential obstacle is that much of the 122 trillion cubic feet of gas and 1.6 billion barrels of oil in the Levant Basin Province lies in territorial waters where borders are hotly disputed between Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Gaza and Cyprus.

Amidst this regional jockeying for gas, though, Israel faces its own little-understood energy challenges. It could, for instance, take until 2020 for much of these domestic resources to be properly mobilised.

But this is the tip of the iceberg. A 2012 letter by two Israeli government chief scientists – which the Israeli government chose not to disclose – warned the government that Israel still had insufficient gas resources to sustain exports despite all the stupendous discoveries. The letter, according to Ha'aretz, stated that Israel's domestic resources were 50% less than needed to support meaningful exports, and could be depleted in decades:

"We believe Israel should increase its [domestic] use of natural gas by 2020 and should not export gas. The Natural Gas Authority's estimates are lacking. There's a gap of 100 to 150 billion cubic meters between the demand projections that were presented to the committee and the most recent projections. The gas reserves are likely to last even less than 40 years!"

As Dr Gary Luft - an advisor to the US Energy Security Council - wrote in the Journal of Energy Security, "with the depletion of Israel's domestic gas supplies accelerating, and without an imminent rise in Egyptian gas imports, Israel could face a power crisis in the next few years… If Israel is to continue to pursue its natural gas plans it must diversify its supply sources."

Israel's new domestic discoveries do not, as yet, offer an immediate solution as electricity prices reach record levels, heightening the imperative to diversify supply. This appears to be behind Prime Minister Netanyahu's announcement in February 2011 that it was now time to seal the Gaza gas deal. But even after a new round of negotiations was kick-started between the Fatah-led Palestinian Authority and Israel in September 2012, Hamas was excluded from these talks, and thus rejected the legitimacy of any deal.

Earlier this year, Hamas condemned a PA deal to purchase $1.2 billion worth of gas from Israel Leviathan field over a 20 year period once the field starts producing. Simultaneously, the PA has held several meetings with the British Gas Group to develop the Gaza gas field, albeit with a view to exclude Hamas – and thus Gazans – from access to the proceeds. That plan had been the brainchild of Quartet Middle East envoy Tony Blair.

But the PA was also courting Russia's Gazprom to develop the Gaza marine gas field, and talks have been going on between Russia, Israel and Cyprus, though so far it is unclear what the outcome of these have been. Also missing was any clarification on how the PA would exert control over Gaza, which is governed by Hamas.

According to Anais Antreasyan in the University of California's Journal of Palestine Studies, the most respected English language journal devoted to the Arab-Israeli conflict, Israel's stranglehold over Gaza has been designed to make "Palestinian access to the Marine-1 and Marine-2 gas wells impossible." Israel's long-term goal "besides preventing the Palestinians from exploiting their own resources, is to integrate the gas fields off Gaza into the adjacent Israeli offshore installations." This is part of a wider strategy of:

"…. separating the Palestinians from their land and natural resources in order to exploit them, and, as a consequence, blocking Palestinian economic development. Despite all formal agreements to the contrary, Israel continues to manage all the natural resources nominally under the jurisdiction of the PA, from land and water to maritime and hydrocarbon resources."

For the Israeli government, Hamas continues to be the main obstacle to the finalisation of the gas deal. In the incumbent defence minister's words: "Israel's experience during the Oslo years indicates Palestinian gas profits would likely end up funding terrorism against Israel. The threat is not limited to Hamas… It is impossible to prevent at least some of the gas proceeds from reaching Palestinian terror groups."

The only option, therefore, is yet another "military operation to uproot Hamas."

Unfortunately, for the IDF uprooting Hamas means destroying the group's perceived civilian support base – which is why Palestinian civilian casualties massively outweigh that of Israelis. Both are obviously reprehensible, but Israel's capacity to inflict destruction is simply far greater.

In the wake of Operation Cast Lead, the Jerusalem-based Public Committee Against Torture in Israel (Pcati) found that the IDF had adopted a more aggressive combat doctrine based on two principles – "zero casualties" for IDF soldiers at the cost of deploying increasingly indiscriminate firepower in densely populated areas, and the "dahiya doctrine" promoting targeting of civilian infrastructure to create widespread suffering amongst the population with a view to foment opposition to Israel's opponents.

This was confirmed in practice by the UN fact-finding mission in Gaza which concluded that the IDF had pursued a "deliberate policy of disproportionate force," aimed at the "supporting infrastructure" of the enemy - "this appears to have meant the civilian population," said the UN report.

The Israel-Palestine conflict is clearly not all about resources. But in an age of expensive energy, competition to dominate regional fossil fuels are increasingly influencing the critical decisions that can inflame war.

Dr. Nafeez Ahmed is an international security journalist and academic. He is the author of A User's Guide to the Crisis of Civilization: And How to Save It, and the forthcoming science fiction thriller, ZERO POINT. ZERO POINT is set in a near future following a Fourth Iraq War. Follow Ahmed on Facebook and Twitter.

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[Meath_Villan]

Didn't it turn out they didn't take that soldier hostage either

[Xann]

 

Wish the dimwits would stop blowing up history.

[Meath_Villan]

Wwjd ?

[omariqy]

Where's that?

[blandy]

 

Wish the dimwits would stop blowing up history.

Well yes, though tbh it's more the blowing up of people that is the bigger crime, right now.

[maqroll]

Meanwhile almost 2,000 people were killed in Syria this week....God is nowhere to be found anywhere near the Holy Land.

[Vive_La_Villa]

Meanwhile almost 2,000 people were killed in Syria this week....God is nowhere to be found anywhere near the Holy Land.

When will it end? On the creation of ISIS?

[maqroll]

 

Meanwhile almost 2,000 people were killed in Syria this week....God is nowhere to be found anywhere near the Holy Land.

When will it end? On the creation of ISIS?

 

When people there finally understand that there is no God. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

Meanwhile almost 2,000 people were killed in Syria this week....God is nowhere to be found anywhere near the Holy Land.

When will it end? On the creation of ISIS?

When people there finally understand that there is no God.

So never?

[maqroll]

 

 

 

Meanwhile almost 2,000 people were killed in Syria this week....God is nowhere to be found anywhere near the Holy Land.

When will it end? On the creation of ISIS?

When people there finally understand that there is no God.

So never?

 

You cynic, you.

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Give me a week and I'll sort it out.

[blandy]

Meanwhile almost 2,000 people were killed in Syria this week....God is nowhere to be found anywhere near the Holy Land.

@TheTweetOfGod said on twitter

Note to Self: Next time, no Middle East.

and also

Even I'm uncomfortable with what Israel is doing in Gaza, and I'm Jewish.