MakemineVanilla Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 He's not from here, but hey. I love Bill but the truth of this statement does not disprove the truth of the economic argument against the minimum wage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mockingbird_franklin Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 (edited) that sniffs a bit of ahh but don't mention Labour Why, Is it because it is likely to be the uncomfortable truth, so makes the defense of this government, which usually consists of nothing more than a "Ah but under Labour", even thought this is a weak argument purely designed to avoid having to attempt to defend the indefensible with anything remotely approaching that of substance or fact. (It's been a long time on this thread since anyone even attempted). I'm no fan of Blairite/Browns Labour and have no allegiance to any political party, some of my views would be considered left wing, some right wing and most smack bang in the middle ground. I was as vocal in my criticism of them (right wing Labour) as I am of the current Government on many issues, albeit not on here, even if they were in no way as beligerently persecutative of the poor, the disabled and the disadvantaged as this current bunch of words removed. I actually agree Labour should have insisted the bail outs contained a shareholding having gone down that route, but then I didn't agree with the bail outs, we should have taken a more Icelandic approach to the problem, we could have spent all that money we gave to rich bankers to actually do something to recify the cause of the problem rather than as a sticking plaster and allowing the perpetrators of the problem to go on as before. However as they are in the pockets of the big corporations as much as the Tory's (some would argue the Tory's are part of those big corporations) it's hardly surprising they didn't ask for shares. but as I said in my earlier post, seeing as both parties are in those pockets, then having that shareholding would not have made an ounce of difference to the current situation, unless of course by some fluke of fortune we ended up with a party that really represents the interests on the general public attaining power, which is highly unlikely as no such party curently exists in a form that could strive for such a public mandate and if their was every effort would be put into place to keep the status-quo through assassination both covert and public Edited February 27, 2014 by mockingbird_franklin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colhint Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 but you can't really say it's the truth though can you? There is no evidence to support that. It's just an opinion that the Tories would have done the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post chrisp65 Posted February 27, 2014 Popular Post Share Posted February 27, 2014 All you people moaning about the bailing out of big banks need to get a grip. If bankers didn't get 6 and 7 figure bonuses after the recession we've just had, who the hell would be spending money? Thankfully there is a trickle down of the bonus effect whereby house pricing in the south east is kept mercifully buoyant and Porsche dealerships have been able to retain the majority of their staff. I know of several patisseries in Knightbridge, run as hobbies by wives and offspring of bankers that would be forced to close if daddy moved to Dubai. What would that do to the economy? God bless the politicians, I only wish we hadn't raised the minimum wage by 19p. It's money that now threatens the recovery that could so easily have been channelled into flood defences for low lying new builds around Windsor. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 (edited) RBS make £8.2bn losses (up 56%). Employees are to share £576m in bonuses. Of course they are, makes perfect sense. Edit - more in link.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/10664372/RBS-has-lost-all-the-46bn-pumped-in-by-the-taxpayer.html Unfortunately when RBS was bailed out, some genius in Downing St didn't think it was important for the government held shares to confer voting rights, so they don't. I don't believe that's correct, is it? The UKFI report says that as at 31 March 2012, they held the equivalent of 66% of the voting share capital (the non voting 'B' shares made that up to 82% of total share capital). Edit: Last year's report has it at 65% and 81% respectively as at end of March 2013. I'm not sure what relevance it would have anyway as I thought that shareholders' votes are only binding on directors' remuneration packages and with regard to the 200% of salary bonus thingy. Edited February 27, 2014 by snowychap 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mockingbird_franklin Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 (edited) but you can't really say it's the truth though can you? There is no evidence to support that. It's just an opinion that the Tories would have done the same. As they were not in power it would be impossible to suggest that evidence would exist that the *Blue flag political department would have done anything different to the *Red flags political department, surely if their was the papers would have be full of stories of them genuinely disagreeing, and undoubted their would have been press releases etc from them to indicate what they would have done different (rather than the ritual often fake opposition to current government policy, expressed to underline their suppossed differences, that is usual, and needed to keep any air of real democracy) with the Red flag approach, , especially as nothing they have done since obtaining their un-mandated power through back room deals with the *Orange flag political wing would suggest they would do anything but put the interests of the wealthiest, their friends or supporters (many of which are the same as the bankers in question) before Joe Public, or in the interests of fairness of justice.. Anyhow in light of Snowychaps post, it would make it all academic, seems they have the voting rights and choose not to exercise them, but even if they did, they could be ignored. * the use of colours is to define the supposed 3 separate factions of what is effectively just the political classes. Edited February 27, 2014 by mockingbird_franklin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mockingbird_franklin Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 (edited) All you people moaning about the bailing out of big banks need to get a grip. If bankers didn't get 6 and 7 figure bonuses after the recession we've just had, who the hell would be spending money? Thankfully there is a trickle down of the bonus effect whereby house pricing in the south east is kept mercifully buoyant and Porsche dealerships have been able to retain the majority of their staff. I know of several patisseries in Knightbridge, run as hobbies by wives and offspring of bankers that would be forced to close if daddy moved to Dubai. What would that do to the economy? God bless the politicians, I only wish we hadn't raised the minimum wage by 19p. It's money that now threatens the recovery that could so easily have been channelled into flood defences for low lying new builds around Windsor. Totally right everyone knows how the trickle down effect is the greatest economic and socially just system to end poverty of the poor, by undeservedly giving more to the rich at the expense of the poor, After all giving money to the poor, though paying living wages etc will just keep 99p shops in business and manufacturers of high strength lager going strong, as both of these are thriving no need to follow such policies, and keeping the funds to buy those big screen TV's and latest smartphones away from the poor helps the balance of payments no end as they are all manufactured outside the UK. You wouldn't want the poor expanding their horizons by becoming economically viable, maybe they would realise those people from other countries, with different beliefs have far more in common with each other than they have differences and stop fearing them, they may become able to ignore the propaganda foisted on them and begin to stop fearing everything and everyone else. Edited February 27, 2014 by mockingbird_franklin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mockingbird_franklin Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Is their anything IDS touches that doesnt turn to shit for those effected. Obviously it doesn't turn to shit for the people who make a nice tidy bit of wedge from his changes and the contracts they are rewarded with, the capita's, Atos', A4e, G4s and the business' that get paid to take free workers http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/feb/27/benefit-mismanagement-hurting-sick-and-disabled-atos-capita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 (edited) All you people moaning about the bailing out of big banks need to get a grip. If bankers didn't get 6 and 7 figure bonuses after the recession we've just had, who the hell would be spending money? Thankfully there is a trickle down of the bonus effect whereby house pricing in the south east is kept mercifully buoyant and Porsche dealerships have been able to retain the majority of their staff. I know of several patisseries in Knightbridge, run as hobbies by wives and offspring of bankers that would be forced to close if daddy moved to Dubai. What would that do to the economy? God bless the politicians, I only wish we hadn't raised the minimum wage by 19p. It's money that now threatens the recovery that could so easily have been channelled into flood defences for low lying new builds around Windsor. It is a pity you weren't joking because there is an element of truth in your satire. The truth is that the only industries in the UK these days which are capable of paying a living wage are those which produce high added-value luxury products. Most, if not all, vehicle manufacturers have their cheap models built in low-wage economies and only make high-added value models, like Jags and Land Rovers in the UK. Even Nissan (Qashqai = prices from £28k) don't make their cheap models in the UK these days. Luxury items are bought by the rich and so it is clear that by selling Jags to countries which suffer economic inequality like China and India, that British workers are benefiting from that inequality. Creating jobs which can add enough value to justify a living wage is a huge problem for a developed economy like the UK. Edited February 27, 2014 by MakemineVanilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 The starting price of a Qashqai is £18K not £28K. Not that it matters, but the pedant in me wanted to point that out. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 The starting price of a Qashqai is £18K not £28K. Not that it matters, but the pedant in me wanted to point that out. Carry on. Thanks for the correction - I was looking at a the Qashqai Premier (£28k) rather than the Acenta (£22k). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mockingbird_franklin Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 All this after generous tax breaks for the frackers. Of which Osbourne's father in law is one. Yes I know it's the USA, but here is the definition of a hypocrite regarding fracking http://ecowatch.com/2014/02/21/exxon-ceo-joins-lawsuit-concerned-fracking-devalues-property/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 All this after generous tax breaks for the frackers. Of which Osbourne's father in law is one. Yes I know it's the USA, but here is the definition of a hypocrite regarding fracking http://ecowatch.com/2014/02/21/exxon-ceo-joins-lawsuit-concerned-fracking-devalues-property/ I can't decide whether it is a good thing that mineral rights belong to the crown in the UK (stolen during WW1) or a bad thing. It is probably the latter, as at least every licence granted becomes a political matter and may include more accountability than a private deal with an energy company and a landowner. But the whole idea of successful tests and the discovery of substantial reserves is to be dreaded, not only because of the potential environmental damage. Any bonanza strike should be dreaded by both the Left and the Right, because last time it happened the then Tory government used the income to fund the Thatcher revolution. This could happen again given some easy money. But the Tory voters should also worry because such funds would enable Labour to build their client state and big government project. So, much to be dreaded by both the Left and the Right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mockingbird_franklin Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 All you people moaning about the bailing out of big banks need to get a grip. If bankers didn't get 6 and 7 figure bonuses after the recession we've just had, who the hell would be spending money? Thankfully there is a trickle down of the bonus effect whereby house pricing in the south east is kept mercifully buoyant and Porsche dealerships have been able to retain the majority of their staff. I know of several patisseries in Knightbridge, run as hobbies by wives and offspring of bankers that would be forced to close if daddy moved to Dubai. What would that do to the economy? God bless the politicians, I only wish we hadn't raised the minimum wage by 19p. It's money that now threatens the recovery that could so easily have been channelled into flood defences for low lying new builds around Windsor. It is a pity you weren't joking because there is an element of truth in your satire. The truth is that the only industries in the UK these days which are capable of paying a living wage are those which produce high added-value luxury products. Most, if not all, vehicle manufacturers have their cheap models built in low-wage economies and only make high-added value models, like Jags and Land Rovers in the UK. Even Nissan (Qashqai = prices from £28k) don't make their cheap models in the UK these days. Luxury items are bought by the rich and so it is clear that by selling Jags to countries which suffer economic inequality like China and India, that British workers are benefiting from that inequality. Creating jobs which can add enough value to justify a living wage is a huge problem for a developed economy like the UK. Fair play, your post is a far superior satirical piece than either mine or Chrisp's 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mockingbird_franklin Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 (edited) Nice to see that saving face and denying the needy desperately needed help is whats really important in Dave's big 'all in it together' society http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/heartless-callous-tories-block-3m-3180793 Edited February 27, 2014 by mockingbird_franklin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colhint Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 I'm not surprised they voted against it. The mirror says we could get 3 million out of a pot of 3 billion across 27 member states. Surely we should be getting a bit closer to the 111 million that everyone else is getting, shouldn't we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 ...the economic argument... The economy is flawed, its arguments equally so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 All you people moaning about the bailing out of big banks need to get a grip. If bankers didn't get 6 and 7 figure bonuses after the recession we've just had, who the hell would be spending money? Thankfully there is a trickle down of the bonus effect whereby house pricing in the south east is kept mercifully buoyant and Porsche dealerships have been able to retain the majority of their staff. I know of several patisseries in Knightbridge, run as hobbies by wives and offspring of bankers that would be forced to close if daddy moved to Dubai. What would that do to the economy? God bless the politicians, I only wish we hadn't raised the minimum wage by 19p. It's money that now threatens the recovery that could so easily have been channelled into flood defences for low lying new builds around Windsor. It is a pity you weren't joking because there is an element of truth in your satire. The truth is that the only industries in the UK these days which are capable of paying a living wage are those which produce high added-value luxury products. Most, if not all, vehicle manufacturers have their cheap models built in low-wage economies and only make high-added value models, like Jags and Land Rovers in the UK. Even Nissan (Qashqai = prices from £28k) don't make their cheap models in the UK these days. Luxury items are bought by the rich and so it is clear that by selling Jags to countries which suffer economic inequality like China and India, that British workers are benefiting from that inequality. Creating jobs which can add enough value to justify a living wage is a huge problem for a developed economy like the UK. Fair play, your post is a far superior satirical piece than either mine or Chrisp's Apologies Komrade, it was not my intention to criticise glorious and heroic British proletariat, or undermine their claim to be victim of free-market capitalist jack-boot system, they have unaccountably voted for, for the last 35 years. I was only pointing out that it is easier to pay living-wage (£14 an hour at Jag) building £60k XJ model at Castle Vale than building biscuit tin old style Mini at Longbridge, where every car made loss. And also, I point out irony that many of these cars being exported to China where workers jump off Foxconn roof, and middle-classes have enough money to buy luxurious symbols of old imperialism. I do not blame heroic British proletariat for post-industrial capitalist economy where property boom has made it impossible to make living wage, making widgets with small margins or flipping imperialist McDonald hamburger. But never mind; soon, son of Marxist Miliband will be back in power and he will recreate compassionate economic miracle like Mr Brown, using Chinese money created by workers of Foxconn company. He will call this justice and not notice the irony. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villaajax Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Vile woman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfisher Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Seven government ministers turned up for the war on welfare debate in the commons today. They don't give a f... This government have no mandate to do what they're doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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