Bolitics The New Condem Government

[tonyh29]

drat01, on 21 Oct 2013 - 2:52 PM, said:

 

tonyh29, on 21 Oct 2013 - 2:44 PM, said:

 

blandy, on 21 Oct 2013 - 2:05 PM, said:

 

tonyh29, on 21 Oct 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

 

drat01, on 21 Oct 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

 

 

So Tony - you still wont discuss the points being made? - Interesting - why is that?

 

 

I replied to the list almost straight away saying the bloke lacked credibility  , what is their to discuss  ? shall we discuss the merits of David Icke and lizard people  whilst we are at it ?

 

It's a shame when people dismiss (in this case) a whole series of linked and argued points with an ad hominem, response - the bloke who wrote them has from time to time had to apologise to someone about something unrelated, so he lacks credibility

 

I've seen better efforts.

 

 

The article is from a biased source  (Labour Think tank) which the poster sorta forgot to mention   .. and then citing "evidence" from the Daily Mail hardly enhances his "facts"  .. ( tbh with the poster himself being a long term member of the Daily Mail insult club and I'm surprised he would then link to articles from said establishment to support his case  )

 

but  whilst someone else is happy to use a man who said  "Irish travellers are gypsies" and "The white man will be extinct in this country eventually"  as a source for debate , I personally I don't think Eoin Clarke deserves the publicity

 

Tony - please stop - I stated exactly where the article was from

 

What are you talking about re "facts" - I did not write the article, this is getting very annoying again

 

And your concentration on the person who collated the list rather than the subjects that it highlights certainly shows that you are again trying to deflect from the topics 

 

You linked to Green Benches   .. it doesn't state anywhere that the author of the article is the founder of a labour think tank ... don't you think that small matter might be relevant  ? 

 

I never said you wrote the "facts" I said you linked to an article containing them  , your failure to read posts is becoming rather annoying 

OMG we're giving money to the French!>"£$%?>!>!>!! Out of the EU NOW¬!!!! British Power Stations for British People1!!!!121

is that you Gordon ?

[tonyh29]

it gets better actually

 

so number 10 on the list

 

Tories have axed 5,601 Nurses since May 2010  (evidence) 

 

the evidence takes you to a twitter page  ..of .... Dr Eoin Clarke

[drat01]

The article as I clearly stated with a link (as per site rules) was from a web site. There is no requirement to detail who "owns" that web site nor is there any requirement to detail what groups they belong to surely. And as I have said on numerous times, but you are missing the point was not the person who collated the info but more the statements and the backup articles that he kindly linked to (along with his wording). Your desire to move away from discussing any of those issues an concentrate more on spurious information that has no relevance to the points certainly shows a desire to deflect from the subjects. Sorry Tony but that is a regular thing now,

 

Your badly worded post certainly could be read as you were stating that I was the author of the post. I appreciate that a lot of the points in the original article will be awkward reading for a Tory supporter, but as said they are certainly things that any Gvmt supporter may get asked to comment on in forums like this. I suspect that references to John Prescott etc wont be a valid answer.

 

Anyway assuming that has stopped all of that, interesting today that a Tory MP is seemingly brought to task by the Torygraph for telling a one legged beggar to "get a job"

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/10392829/Tory-MP-tells-one-legged-beggar-to-get-a-job.html

 

It certainly does backup a lot of accusations about the "nasty" party

it gets better actually

 

so number 10 on the list

 

Tories have axed 5,601 Nurses since May 2010  (evidence) 

 

the evidence takes you to a twitter page  ..of .... Dr Eoin Clarke

again Tony - why not comment on the facts? - or are you stating that they are not true? - again deflection rather than looking at the point being discussed especially as the Twitter page is just a repository for a table showing the figures on number of nurses

Edited October 21, 2013 by blandy

[blandy]

The article is from a biased source  (Labour Think tank) which the poster sorta forgot to mention   .. and then citing "evidence" from the Daily Mail hardly enhances his "facts"  .. ( tbh with the poster himself being a long term member of the Daily Mail insult club and I'm surprised he would then link to articles from said establishment to support his case  )

The "article" is actually just a list of things pulled from various media sources including various tory leaning and supporting newpapers. There's little or no input, other than compiling the list, from the blog owner.

 

"yeah they might have done loads of really bad things, but, like, the guy who pointed it out smells of wee, so it doesn't count."

[blandy]

it gets better actually

 

so number 10 on the list

 

Tories have axed 5,601 Nurses since May 2010  (evidence) 

 

the evidence takes you to a twitter page  ..of .... Dr Eoin Clarke

which has a screen capture of NHS Hospital and Community Service's own statistics.. Not quite so LoL, then.

[drat01]

Did that very charming lady (not) Esther McVey really suggest that people should convert 3 bed roomed houses into 1 bed roomed so that people would avoid the bedroom tax?

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/sheila-gilmore/bedroom-tax_b_4113544.html

Edited October 21, 2013 by drat01

[tonyh29]

 

The article is from a biased source  (Labour Think tank) which the poster sorta forgot to mention   .. and then citing "evidence" from the Daily Mail hardly enhances his "facts"  .. ( tbh with the poster himself being a long term member of the Daily Mail insult club and I'm surprised he would then link to articles from said establishment to support his case  )

The "article" is actually just a list of things pulled from various media sources including various tory leaning and supporting newpapers. There's little or no input, other than compiling the list, from the blog owner.

 

"yeah they might have done loads of really bad things, but, like, the guy who pointed it out smells of wee, so it doesn't count."

 

 

oh come on now  ... really

 

and you reckon that my effort was lazy ....

[peterms]

just wondering Pete how you are measuring public debt? Is it as a % of gdp. Looking at the History of that, are the higher peaks all around the times of major wars. I know we are in Afghanistan now, but that is nothing like the scale of wars previously. I mean the national debt was all started for the British Empire, and from then on we were pretty much at war every decade from then on in, whether it be the 7 years war right through to the Napoleonic war. Obviously there was a drawing down of the debt in each case only for it to hike up again at the next outbreak. Obviously it had massive peaks with the 2 world wars in the last century. Now given that we haven't been in major conflict since then (obviously I wouldn't be disrespectful to those who died in the Falklands, the gulf or Afghanistan) but the number who died suggest the were not major wars. So our debt looks about the same now as the 60's when we had been paying for the second world war for getting on for 20 years. It also looks like the highest peace time debt, given the time since conflict

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_national_debt

Yes, % of gdp (since the point is not the cash total, but the ease or otherwise with which it can be repaid - therefore also see the other graph on the page you link, showing interest payments as % of gdp). Looking at the line for 50% of gdp as an easy reference mark, for 170 straight years it was above that. Last century it was above that line for 60 straight years. Immediately before the bankers' financial crisis, it was at one of the lowest points ever, probably only four short periods of a few years when it had ever been lower. Yet when you read the paper or turn on the tv, you'd think it's at a historic high and spiralling out of control.

So the hysteria about the level of national debt is quite misinformed, even at the level of basic fact.

The next question is "Does it matter?". We have to realise that the national debt is in another sense the national savings - all those pension funds that are owed money for their ultra-safe investments, paying our pensions from investments with zero risk of default. Would it be better, or worse, if we repaid all the debt and let them turn to complete reliance on the markets to pay our pensions, because there wasn't safe government debt to buy?

Then there's the point that at the national level, if you try to achieve a government surplus, you are in effect trying to create a private sector deficit (unless the balance of foreign trade is so great it outweighs both, which is extremely unlikely if you're not Norway). Why would that be good?

The view that we should have government surpluses and a massively reduced government debt works if and only if you mistakenly believe a government to be just a big household, and if you also don't understand about sectoral balances. Or of course if you want to use a superficially plausible story to create a smokescreen for ideologically driven and wholly unnecessary cuts, to take money from the poor and give it to the rich.

[tonyh29]

blandy, on 21 Oct 2013 - 3:26 PM, said:

 

tonyh29, on 21 Oct 2013 - 3:13 PM, said:

it gets better actually

 

so number 10 on the list

 

Tories have axed 5,601 Nurses since May 2010  (evidence) 

 

the evidence takes you to a twitter page  ..of .... Dr Eoin Clarke

which has a screen capture of NHS Hospital and Community Service's own statistics.. Not quite so LoL, then.

 

then he should have linked to that website instead of his own surely  .. that just looks like something I could knock up in MS Paint

 

in the interests of fairness I eventually found a NHS website with the figures he quotes for 2013 and they appear to be a close enough reflection .. however I can't find any reference to 2010 on those page so it makes it difficult to asses his 2010 claims  ...

 

however a bit more digging seemed to suggest that whilst the number of nurses had dropped the number of Doctors and consultants  had increased  (only to 2012 admittedly)

 

 

 

as these Doctors and consultants are almost certainly going to be higher paid , it doesn't suggest that it's cost driven as to why nurse numbers are dropping ?

[chrisp65]

govt minister this morning suggested 25,000 British jobs guaranteed to be created by the new nuclear station at Hinckley

 

a Labour type slip was queried by the interviewer who questioned if he could guarantee they'd be British

 

he then spoke for quite a while but I didn't actually spot an answer, but apparently we have negotiated hard for something or other and this is just the beginning and it answers many er questions and of course this is good for all of us and don't forget we already sell some stuff to China so, ya know, yeah, all good all good

[peterms]

Did that very charming lady (not) Esther McVey really suggest that people should convert 3 bed roomed houses into 1 bed roomed so that people would avoid the bedroom tax?

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/sheila-gilmore/bedroom-tax_b_4113544.html

I can see the strength of her argument.  Similarly, taxis which may have previously carried four or five people, but which on their last journey ended up carrying just one person, should be converted so they can carry no more than one person.  That will be more efficient.  And any cinema which fails to achieve full occupancy at every showing should rip out seats, until it gets down to the level where it can be guaranteed that even the smallest crowd will fill the theatre with no wasted seats.

 

Esther McVey...a model of rational thought...

[markavfc40]

Did that very charming lady (not) Esther McVey really suggest that people should convert 3 bed roomed houses into 1 bed roomed so that people would avoid the bedroom tax?

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/sheila-gilmore/bedroom-tax_b_4113544.html

 

 

She is clearly as thick as pig shit. What's perhaps more worrying is how thick the **** who voted for her have got to be.

[colhint]

it gets better actually

 

so number 10 on the list

 

Tories have axed 5,601 Nurses since May 2010  (evidence) 

 

the evidence takes you to a twitter page  ..of .... Dr Eoin Clarke

 

 

Ok on the facts, lets look at them. That looks about a 1.5 %. Wouldn't you expect about 2.5% to retire each year at least and about another .5% to just leave the profession. So if thats the case, Haven't about 22,000 left the NHS naturally. It very much looks as though no one was sacked as he claims but about 15,000 have been recruited. Now he might not think that is enough but isn't it just sensationalism reporting

[tonyh29]

peterms, on 21 Oct 2013 - 3:59 PM, said:

 

drat01, on 21 Oct 2013 - 3:26 PM, said:

Did that very charming lady (not) Esther McVey really suggest that people should convert 3 bed roomed houses into 1 bed roomed so that people would avoid the bedroom tax?

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/sheila-gilmore/bedroom-tax_b_4113544.html

I can see the strength of her argument.  Similarly, taxis which may have previously carried four or five people, but which on their last journey ended up carrying just one person, should be converted so they can carry no more than one person.  That will be more efficient.  And any cinema which fails to achieve full occupancy at every showing should rip out seats, until it gets down to the level where it can be guaranteed that even the smallest crowd will fill the theatre with no wasted seats.

 

Esther McVey...a model of rational thought...

 

 

can we establish if she actually said this ? I've seen the article on the Huffingdon post journalists application form for a job at the Daily Mail kindly linked to originally , but the link they give from the house of commons doesn't actually show her saying this  ..... all I can see is the text below

 

Esther McVey: What I will say is that we are putting in place support for those housing associations and local authorities that are finding that they cannot come to terms with the issue, although they have had three years to do something and have failed to do so. I would like to talk about the 1.8 million people on housing

waiting lists and the 250,000 people in overcrowded accommodation, whom nobody had looked after. We are looking after everybody and supporting them as best we can with discretionary housing payments

 

which may be an abridged version of her reply possibly ??

[Kingfisher]

Did that very charming lady (not) Esther McVey really suggest that people should convert 3 bed roomed houses into 1 bed roomed so that people would avoid the bedroom tax?

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/sheila-gilmore/bedroom-tax_b_4113544.html

She is clearly as thick as pig shit. What's perhaps more worrying is how thick the **** who voted for her have got to be.

She may or may not be stupid, but she can't defend the indefensible, that's why her attempt sounds so bizarre - but she had to give it a go, it's her job. But then, she's a willing member of the party that came up with this and other ridiculous, heartless and ill thought through ideas in the first place so... **** up ideologist, or naive and stupid, who knows.

[tonyh29]

markavfc40, on 21 Oct 2013 - 4:05 PM, said:

 

drat01, on 21 Oct 2013 - 3:26 PM, said:

Did that very charming lady (not) Esther McVey really suggest that people should convert 3 bed roomed houses into 1 bed roomed so that people would avoid the bedroom tax?

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/sheila-gilmore/bedroom-tax_b_4113544.html

 

 

She is clearly as thick as pig shit. What's perhaps more worrying is how thick the **** who voted for her have got to be.

 

Ed Milliband says Hi 

 

but seriously can't you give anything more constructive than look how smart I am because I didn't vote Tory replies all the time  ....  explain why someone with a distinction for her MSc in corporate governance is thick , explain why the 42.5% of people in Wirral who you've just blanket insulted are thick   .. even that would be a start 

[peterms]

 

it gets better actually

 

so number 10 on the list

 

Tories have axed 5,601 Nurses since May 2010  (evidence) 

 

the evidence takes you to a twitter page  ..of .... Dr Eoin Clarke

 

 

Ok on the facts, lets look at them. That looks about a 1.5 %. Wouldn't you expect about 2.5% to retire each year at least and about another .5% to just leave the profession. So if thats the case, Haven't about 22,000 left the NHS naturally. It very much looks as though no one was sacked as he claims but about 15,000 have been recruited. Now he might not think that is enough but isn't it just sensationalism reporting

 

 

[markavfc40]

 

it gets better actually

 

so number 10 on the list

 

Tories have axed 5,601 Nurses since May 2010  (evidence) 

 

the evidence takes you to a twitter page  ..of .... Dr Eoin Clarke

 

 

Ok on the facts, lets look at them. That looks about a 1.5 %. Wouldn't you expect about 2.5% to retire each year at least and about another .5% to just leave the profession. So if thats the case, Haven't about 22,000 left the NHS naturally. It very much looks as though no one was sacked as he claims but about 15,000 have been recruited. Now he might not think that is enough but isn't it just sensationalism reporting

 

 

Taken in isolation you might think it can be argued that its not a major issue.

 

However combine it alongside the cuts in GP funding, closure of walk in centers, huge reduction in local government funding inevitably meaning massive cuts to social care, 8000 hospital beds axed and the shambles that is the 111 service then you have a massive shit storm which has inevitably led to A and E departments being on there knees. You would have to be a died in the wool Tory to suggest they are doing anything other than making a right f up of health and social care and specifically the NHS.

 

As I said previously they try to deflect all this though by constantly bringing attention to the few bad apples with in the NHS and of course the gullible among us fall for it.

Edited October 21, 2013 by markavfc40

[tonyh29]

 

 

Did that very charming lady (not) Esther McVey really suggest that people should convert 3 bed roomed houses into 1 bed roomed so that people would avoid the bedroom tax?

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/sheila-gilmore/bedroom-tax_b_4113544.html

She is clearly as thick as pig shit. What's perhaps more worrying is how thick the **** who voted for her have got to be.

 

She may or may not be stupid, but she can't defend the indefensible, that's why her attempt sounds so bizarre - but she had to give it a go, it's her job. But then, she's a willing member of the party that came up with this and other ridiculous, heartless and ill thought through ideas in the first place so... **** up ideologist, or naive and stupid, who knows.

 

 

at the risk of Ahhhh but , wasn't this introduced by Labour in the Local Housing Allowance rules for tenants in privately owned accommodation

[Kingfisher]

Whoever's brainchild this is (bedroom tax) and whoever willingly supports it should resign from politics, it's not the job for them. Shelf stacking is probably more their level if it's an intellect deficiency, if their just evil heartless selfish bastards then they should resign from breathing, frankly.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Kingfisher