Bolitics The New Condem Government

[Risso]

I fear illegal immigrants are being dehumanised.

 

People need to understand that many of these people simply can't afford to go through the legal channels, for various reasons, and risk their lives travelling across the world in the hope of something better. We need to sympathise and treat them humanely, but at the same time there does need to be a firm stance because it just isn't sustainable.

 

It is the price paid for hundreds of years of exploiting other countries and, well, we need to face up to the fact that the UK's position in the world was not gained fairly.

 

Hmmmm, you seem to be arguing with yourself in that post.  But anyway, just wanting a better life isn't a reason in itself to enter a country illegally.  The UK should of course, take its fair share of people fleeing genuine persecution.  But economic migrants entering illegally should be caught and sent home, no question.  You and I would be if we were to work in the US without a green card, for example.

[drat01]

the people that made the allocation in the first place need dismissing from their jobs  .. what retard puts a family with 2 children in a 1 bedroom house

 

 

I should also add though that without a link the original post doesn't really have any credibility and is little more than one of those Facebook pages that go about to outrage people only to find they have zero truth once you scratch beneath the surface  ... so links please people so we can see the facts for ourselves

You mean like the lies that Theresa May claimed were facts, or the lies that IDS constantly spouts out and is being brought to task about now?

[colhint]

ahh but Tories

[tonyh29]

 

I guess if you were looking for Tigers you'd stop all the animals that looked like elephants  so that you don't upset the tigers  ?

 

but a soon as the link took me to twitter then I'm afraid any credibility your case may have had was lost 

Here's a piece in the local paper, with quotes from named witnesses.  http://www.kilburntimes.co.uk/news/immigration_officers_accused_of_intimidating_train_passengers_at_kensal_green_station_1_2307162

 

Too few witnesses?  They could be making it up?  Perhaps they were hallucinating?  Maybe they're anarchists, who want to undermine trust in our government for their own twisted ends?

 

the point was you didn't link that the first time around

ahh but Tories

beat me too it

[drat01]

ahh but Tories

That makes no sense

 

This is a thread about the Condem's and two political figures who are directly involved with the topics being debated, so sorry for making those chips of yours somewhat soggy and all that

[peterms]

 

 

I guess if you were looking for Tigers you'd stop all the animals that looked like elephants  so that you don't upset the tigers  ?

 

but a soon as the link took me to twitter then I'm afraid any credibility your case may have had was lost 

Here's a piece in the local paper, with quotes from named witnesses.  http://www.kilburntimes.co.uk/news/immigration_officers_accused_of_intimidating_train_passengers_at_kensal_green_station_1_2307162

 

Too few witnesses?  They could be making it up?  Perhaps they were hallucinating?  Maybe they're anarchists, who want to undermine trust in our government for their own twisted ends?

 

the point was you didn't link that the first time around

 

It wasn't there first time round.  Almost everything that happens is reported first on Twitter, then later by traditional media.

 

I suppose people who won't believe anything if it's come from Twitter will need to wait for the mainstream media to filter everything for them, strip out everything that's subject to a DA notice or an injunction, have the story cut and edited and interpreted for them, then they'll know what to think.

[markavfc40]

 

 

 

I should also add though that without a link the original post doesn't really have any credibility and is little more than one of those Facebook pages that go about to outrage people only to find they have zero truth once you scratch beneath the surface  ... so links please people so we can see the facts for ourselves

 

 

If your referring to my post then here is the link to the BBC:

 

Housing benefit Challenge Cases

 

[snowychap]

the people that made the allocation in the first place need dismissing from their jobs  .. what retard puts a family with 2 children in a 1 bedroom house

Maybe they were just a couple when they moved there

they'd still be entitled to move  ... I helped a friends daughter move not so long ago after she had a baby , she applied for a larger flat on account of having the child and was given it

Reading between the lines, I would take a punt that the first one is something like as follows:

The family currently live in unsuitable accomodation (nothing to do with the bedroom tax) and they have been told that the appropriate sized accomodation for their needs is a three bed property but the new rules would mean that they would be penalized for under occupancy (perhaps on the basis that the two children were deemed to have to share, even though they have been assessed as needing separate bedrooms).

I may well be wrong, though.

[Morley_crosses_to_Withe]

I guess if you were looking for Tigers you'd stop all the animals that looked like elephants so that you don't upset the tigers ?

but a soon as the link took me to twitter then I'm afraid any credibility your case may have had was lost

Here's a piece in the local paper, with quotes from named witnesses. http://www.kilburntimes.co.uk/news/immigration_officers_accused_of_intimidating_train_passengers_at_kensal_green_station_1_2307162

Too few witnesses? They could be making it up? Perhaps they were hallucinating? Maybe they're anarchists, who want to undermine trust in our government for their own twisted ends?

the point was you didn't link that the first time around

ahh but Tories

beat me too it

Whilst it wouldn't surprise me if they were stopping 'non-white' people, I still don't think that article is credible. Anyone who has to pass through a tube station each morning will know that the amount of time you actually spend in the ticket area is minimal.

I doubt the 'witnesses' stood there long enough to observe the immigration officers fully. Did they stand for one minute? Ten? Half an hour? An hour!? What was their observation sample?

Also, only one witness said "non-white" whilst the other says "foreign". A foreigner could mean anything - including a white Brazilian with a football shirt on.

[drat01]

The Tory party is seemingly full of quite objectionable people, determined to persist with the North / South divide

 

Perfect example here

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23505723

 

 

 

Fracking should be carried out in the North East of England, where there are large, "desolate" areas, a former energy secretary has said ..............

 

I wonder when Cameron will say something, sometime just past never maybe ? I know let's get a "spokesman" to try and distance us from these remarks. Pah!

 

Edit: Lord Howell is the father in law of Gideon - 'nuff said

Edited July 30, 2013 by drat01

[peterms]

Reading between the lines, I would take a punt that the first one is something like as follows:

The family currently live in unsuitable accomodation (nothing to do with the bedroom tax) and they have been told that the appropriate sized accomodation for their needs is a three bed property but the new rules would mean that they would be penalized for under occupancy (perhaps on the basis that the two children were deemed to have to share, even though they have been assessed as needing separate bedrooms).

I may well be wrong, though.

Quite right.

 

 

 

1. The T/G family (CO/2486/2013) consists of two parents – the father GH and the mother AT – and their two boys, AG aged 5 and HG aged 2. GH and AT are joint tenants of a one bedroom property let to them by a housing association. The accommodation is unsuitable for a number of reasons including its size, disrepair, an infestation of mice, and its location on the top floor of an unlifted block. The family has applied to the local authority for alternative accommodation. They have been assessed as requiring a three bedroom property with ground floor access, given high priority for rehousing under the local allocation scheme, but the local housing authority has also informed them that HB will not pay the full rent for such a property as of 1 April 2013.
2. AG has autistic spectrum disorder, and HG has Down's Syndrome. AG has an assessed need for his own bedroom for reasons related to his autistic spectrum disorder and the risks he poses to his brother. The family has a heightened need for separate bedrooms because of the conflicting needs of the two disabled brothers. HG is affectionate towards AG and does not understand AG's behaviour towards him (which results from his autism). AG has since HG's birth been aggressive and on occasions violent towards HG. His behaviour is very difficult for his parents to manage. HG has been independently assessed by a paediatrician and health visitor as requiring additional space because of equipment needs arising from his Down's Syndrome. The family has at present no appealable decision and no basis for requesting a DHP.

 

From the annex to the judgement.

 

In fact the whole annex is worth quoting, to show the kind of cases which the bedroom tax is throwing up.  Sorry about the formatting.

 

 

1. Jacqueline Carmichael (Case CO/2483/2013), born on 1 May 1972, lives with her husband Jayson in a two bedroom flat. He is her full-time carer. She has spina bifida, hydrocephalus, is doubly incontinent, is unable to weight bear, and has recurring pressure sores. She needs a special hospital-type bed in her bedroom with an electronic pressure mattress, specially designed to fit a single hospital bed. She has to sleep in a fixed position. She requires specialist in-bed toileting equipment, medical sheets and incontinence pads. She and her husband cannot share a bed. There is no space for an additional bed in the room.
2. The couple's HB has been reduced by 14%. They have appealed the reduction decision and await a response. They have now been awarded a 6-month DHP which covers the shortfall between HB and rent.
3. Mr Richard Rourke (CO/2488/2013), born on 17 December 1966, is a widower living with his step-daughter Rebecca in a three bedroom bungalow. Rebecca stays in university accommodation during the week in term-time, and over some weekends. Mr Rourke sleeps in one bedroom, Rebecca in another, and the third is used to store equipment. Mr Rourke is a wheelchair user. He has spinal arthritis, sciatica, sleep apnoea, diabetes and hereditary progressive deafness. He needs assistance with basic care tasks, which is provided by a combination of professionals (during the daytime) and local family support (overnight when needed and at weekends). His mobility is decreasing. Although he can sometimes use crutches for short periods indoors he usually uses a manual wheelchair which has to be pushed. Outdoors he uses a powered wheelchair and a specially adapted Motability vehicle. Rebecca is also a wheelchair user, although she can sometimes walk for short periods. She has Emery Dreifuss Muscular Dystrophy and Supra Ventricular Tachychardia.
4. Mr Rourke's HB has been reduced by 25% on the basis that he is under-occupying by two bedrooms. He proposes to appeal this reduction. He has requested a DHP but that has not yet been decided. In the meantime he has been accruing arrears.
5. Mr Mervyn Drage (CO/2503/2013) is a single man who lives alone in a high-rise tower block, on the site of a former colliery. He has been there for nineteen years. His flat has three bedrooms; but he does not sleep in any of them. They all contain papers which he has accumulated (as does his bath). He has a number of significant mental health problems (depression, anxiety and Obsessive Compulsive Disorder), and various physical difficulties. He is prescribed medication for his depression and receives hospital psychological treatment. These conditions are exacerbated by stress, anxiety and changes to routine. He states that he is very anxious about the prospect of having to move, and disruption to his routines.
6. Mr Drage's HB has been reduced by 25%. He has submitted an appeal and requested that it be deferred pending the outcome of the judicial review. He also requested a DHP and on 29^th April 2013 was notified of a decision to make an award for 6 months only, starting from 8 April 2013. This covers the shortfall for one bedroom rather than two. He has increasing rent arrears.
7. JD (CO/2507/2013) lives with her disabled 26-year-old daughter, AD. They occupy a specially adapted three bedroom property where they have lived since 1993. AD has a twin brother who previously lived in the house but has now moved out. The landlord is a housing association. AD has severe physical disabilities, learning disabilities and visual impairment. She has cerebral palsy with quadriplegia and she is registered blind. She has been assessed as having the approximate mental age of a 3-year-old and is reliant on others to make decisions for her. She is doubly incontinent, and needs 24-hour care and support with every aspect of her life. Two carers are required to assist with all transfers, as she uses a hoist but is herself physically unable to assist. She is a permanent wheelchair user and is unable to move without assistance. JD cares for AD full-time, and respite care has been provided for JD in respect of AD.
8. The property was specially constructed to meet AD's needs, with input from the family, an occupational therapist and a property development team. Specific aids include an internal lift, a gradual slope at the front and rear to allow wheelchair access, ceiling hoists in the bathroom and bedroom, an accessible bathroom and a changing bed.
9. The HB in this case was reduced by 14%. JD has appealed. The local housing authority has deferred consideration of the appeal until these proceedings have concluded. JD has been awarded a six-month DHP until the end of September 2013, but has been informed that the DHP is unlikely to continue thereafter.
10. The remaining cases concern children.
11. The A family (CO/2482/2013) consists of a husband (MA), wife (RA) and their two sons aged 12 (SA) and 10 (TA). TA is disabled, having severe and complex neurodevelopmental difficulties. He is severely autistic with profound emotional, behavioural and learning disabilities, associated with significant challenging behaviour including screaming episodes and physical aggression. He has limited speech and communication. He finds change difficult and cannot tolerate others moving his possessions. His sleep is very disturbed, even when he is medicated; he wakes frequently in the night and needs attention. He is strong and violent and frequently attacks SA. TA's psychiatrist considers that there would be increased risk of physical harm to SA were the boys sharing a room.
12. The family lives in a three bedroom bungalow which has been rented from their local authority since early 2012. Under the local authority's allocation scheme a family of this size would usually be assessed as requiring a two bedroom property (brothers aged 10 and 12 would be expected to share a bedroom), but the family was nevertheless assessed as requiring an additional bedroom, a ground floor property and a garden for reasons arising from TA's disabilities, and his, SA's and their parents' consequent needs.
13. MA was informed of a reduction in HB of 14%. He appealed against the decision and requested a DHP. He has now been informed by the local authority that he has been "granted an extra bedroom allowance due to your child's disability needs" and his HB has been recalculated to cover the full amount of rent due from 1 April 2013.
14. The H family (CO/2491/2013) consists of a husband (SM), wife (SH), SH's son RH (aged 6), and the couple's daughter KH (aged 2). They live in a two-bedroom property on the third floor of a block served by an unreliable lift. RH has a rare brain disorder, Joubert's Syndrome, and other disorders including severe developmental delay. Although aged 6 he is still in nappies, cannot walk, and cannot dress, wash or feed himself. He uses a gastronomy tube. He can crawl, and uses a walker. He has a buggy and will eventually progress to a wheelchair. He can be aggressive in particular to his younger sister KH.
15. It is said that RH needs his own bedroom because of his disturbed sleep, his bulky equipment, his need for space in his bedroom for his personal care needs to be tended to, and the risks he poses to his younger sister. There is also a need for a property which is either adapted or built for wheelchair use, or can be so adapted. The current home is not suitable for a wheelchair and the doors are not wide enough for the walker. The only toilet is in the bathroom, there is no walk-in shower, and bathing RH is very difficult.
16. SH has applied for rehousing and has been given medical priority by the local authority for a move to a three-bedroom property on the ground floor. The local authority's usual standard for a family with two children under ten is two bedrooms, but they have assessed the family as needing an extra bedroom. The family presently lives in accommodation which is too small to meet their needs. They do not therefore have any decision concerning reduction in HB against which to appeal, and it is not possible for them yet to request DHPs.
17. The IT family (CO/2494/2013) consists of IT, the single mother of a son, JY, aged 9, and a daughter, BW, aged 4. They live in a three bedroom property rented from the local housing authority. They were offered this property in October 2011 following an assessment which concluded that they required three bedrooms by reason of JY's behavioural and mental health issues, including the risk of violence from JY to BW. The location is unknown to Mr W, IT's former partner who physically abused her and JY.
18. JY has been diagnosed with ADHD and PTSD. He needs treatment for trauma, having been subjected to abuse and violence by Mr W and witnessed his violence to his mother, and the death of his own father. He is assessed as needing his own bedroom. He experiences a high degree of distress. His behaviour is unpredictable and violent. He receives weekly treatment at the Homerton Hospital. He breaks objects frequently. He likes to be alone in his own room where he plays violent games. He has previously attacked BW, his younger sister. She would not be safe sharing a room with him overnight.
19. IT was told that her HB would be reduced by 14% but she has not yet received an appealable decision. She will be entitled to HB by reference to a three bedroom property when JY turns 10 (in less than one year). Although there is at present no reduction in her HB, she has requested DHPs, but has not yet had a decision.
20. The N family (CO/2492/2013) consists of a single mother (PN) and her two children, TR, a boy aged 8, and ToR, a girl aged 5. They occupy a three bedroom ground floor property with a garden in the social rented sector. The family became homeless in 2010 having fled very serious violence from PN's ex-partner. They were provided with permanent accommodation at their present address in October 2011. It was allocated to them on the basis of a local authority assessment concluding that they need three bedrooms, a ground floor property and a garden because of the disability-related needs of TR, and the need for ToR to have her own room away from her brother. TR has an autistic spectrum disorder, ADHD, developmental delay and suffers from seizures. His sleep is disordered. He suffers from enuresis (bedwetting). He requires constant supervision. He is also hypersensitive to noise. When he wakes in the night his mother usually has to stay with him to keep him calm. The family has been assessed as requiring a three bedroom property as the children require their own rooms owing to TR's autism. They also need a garden given the difficulties TR faces in playing safely in public spaces, and interacting with other children.
21. PN has been informed that her HB would be reduced by 14%, but has not yet received an appealable decision. She has asked for a DHP in advance of the likely deduction to her benefit, but was informed by telephone in mid-April that the DHP request need not be processed yet as her HB had not yet been reduced.
22. The T/G family (CO/2486/2013) consists of two parents – the father GH and the mother AT – and their two boys, AG aged 5 and HG aged 2. GH and AT are joint tenants of a one bedroom property let to them by a housing association. The accommodation is unsuitable for a number of reasons including its size, disrepair, an infestation of mice, and its location on the top floor of an unlifted block. The family has applied to the local authority for alternative accommodation. They have been assessed as requiring a three bedroom property with ground floor access, given high priority for rehousing under the local allocation scheme, but the local housing authority has also informed them that HB will not pay the full rent for such a property as of 1 April 2013.
23. AG has autistic spectrum disorder, and HG has Down's Syndrome. AG has an assessed need for his own bedroom for reasons related to his autistic spectrum disorder and the risks he poses to his brother. The family has a heightened need for separate bedrooms because of the conflicting needs of the two disabled brothers. HG is affectionate towards AG and does not understand AG's behaviour towards him (which results from his autism). AG has since HG's birth been aggressive and on occasions violent towards HG. His behaviour is very difficult for his parents to manage. HG has been independently assessed by a paediatrician and health visitor as requiring additional space because of equipment needs arising from his Down's Syndrome. The family has at present no appealable decision and no basis for requesting a DHP.
24. James Daly (CO/2502/2013) is the father of Rian Lawton-Daly, aged 9. He lives in a two bedroom flat on the ground floor which has level access throughout and also has access to a garden front and back. When Rian was born Mr Daly was living with his partner, Rian's mother. They lived in an owner-occupied property. When Rian was approximately eighteen months old the couple separated and since that time Mr Daly and Rian's mother have shared his care. Rian stays with Mr Daly every weekend and at least one day during the week. He also lives with Mr Daly for part of the school holidays and whenever his mother is away. Rian's mother receives child benefit in respect of him.
25. Rian suffers from spastic quadriplegia, cerebral palsy, epilepsy, learning difficulties, intraventicular haemorrhage and hydrocephalus. He has significant mobility problems (including an inability to use stairs) and other health problems including incontinence. He is assessed as being a full-time wheelchair user, and uses a wheelchair outside the home. Inside he moves by shuffling around on his bottom. He requires assistance with all aspects of daily living.
26. Mr Daly has been informed that his HB was to be reduced by 14%. On 8 April Mr Daly started a temporary seasonal full-time job, and given his current earnings he is not now in receipt of HB. However his job ends in September 2013.

 

[tonyh29]

 

 

 

 

Here's a piece in the local paper, with quotes from named witnesses.  http://www.kilburntimes.co.uk/news/immigration_officers_accused_of_intimidating_train_passengers_at_kensal_green_station_1_2307162

 

Too few witnesses?  They could be making it up?  Perhaps they were hallucinating?  Maybe they're anarchists, who want to undermine trust in our government for their own twisted ends?

 

the point was you didn't link that the first time around

 

It wasn't there first time round.  Almost everything that happens is reported first on Twitter, then later by traditional media.

 

I suppose people who won't believe anything if it's come from Twitter will need to wait for the mainstream media to filter everything for them, strip out everything that's subject to a DA notice or an injunction, have the story cut and edited and interpreted for them, then they'll know what to think.

 

 

 

yes and of course I refer you to the conclusions you wrongly jumped to with Plebgate 

[peterms]

yes and of course I refer you to the conclusions you wrongly jumped to with Plebgate 

My sound conclusions on Plebgate were that if you had to pick either an MP or uniformed officers of the law as a liar, it would be a daunting task, as both groups represent the highest levels of probity and integrity known to humankind; but I think Mitchell probably did it.

[tonyh29]

The Tory party is seemingly full of quite objectionable people, determined to persist with the North / South divide

 

Perfect example here

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23505723

 

 

 

Fracking should be carried out in the North East of England, where there are large, "desolate" areas, a former energy secretary has said ..............

 

 

 

he has a valid point if that's where the shale gas is , no point digging for it in London if it isn't there  ... plus if the fracking causes the North to break off from the mainland it's an added bonus

[tonyh29]

 

yes and of course I refer you to the conclusions you wrongly jumped to with Plebgate 

My sound conclusions on Plebgate were that if you had to pick either an MP or uniformed officers of the law as a liar, it would be a daunting task, as both groups represent the highest levels of probity and integrity known to humankind; but I think Mitchell probably did it.

 

 

there was no " probably"  about it as I recall you  were fairly adamant he had done ... I even recall posting countless times about why not wait and see before everyone condemns him but was in a minority of one  because twitter told you all he did it and referred to the dozens of witnesses (oops )  ..

 

the evidence now suggests he possibly didn't do it  .. not that anyone cares now of course

[coda]

 

The Tory party is seemingly full of quite objectionable people, determined to persist with the North / South divide

 

Perfect example here

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23505723

 

 

 

Fracking should be carried out in the North East of England, where there are large, "desolate" areas, a former energy secretary has said ..............

 

 

 

he has a valid point if that's where the shale gas is , no point digging for it in London if it isn't there  ... plus if the fracking causes the North to break off from the mainland it's an added bonus

 

 

Plenty of deposits in West Sussex.

[peterms]

Whilst it wouldn't surprise me if they were stopping 'non-white' people, I still don't think that article is credible. Anyone who has to pass through a tube station each morning will know that the amount of time you actually spend in the ticket area is minimal.

I doubt the 'witnesses' stood there long enough to observe the immigration officers fully. Did they stand for one minute? Ten? Half an hour? An hour!? What was their observation sample?

Also, only one witness said "non-white" whilst the other says "foreign". A foreigner could mean anything - including a white Brazilian with a football shirt on.

 

When you read a witness account of other things, do you disbelieve it unless they have followed methodology designed for conducting statistically valid samples for publication in professional journals?  Or is it just this case?

[tonyh29]

The Tory party is seemingly full of quite objectionable people, determined to persist with the North / South divide

 

Perfect example here

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23505723

 

 

 

Fracking should be carried out in the North East of England, where there are large, "desolate" areas, a former energy secretary has said ..............

 

 

 

should also be pointed out it was the view of one Tory Peer and not the whole party , indeed Downing street distanced themselves from it  ... but using your logic that one man brands a party a disgrace does that make the Labour party the  Anti Semitic party after the views of Nazir Ahemd

[snowychap]

Plenty of deposits in West Sussex.

And contiguous counties probably, eh Tony?

[peterms]

there was no " probably"  about it as I recall you  were fairly adamant he had done ... I even recall posting countless times about why not wait and see before everyone condemns him but was in a minority of one  because twitter told you all he did it and referred to the dozens of witnesses (oops )  ..

 

the evidence now suggests he possibly didn't do it  .. not that anyone cares now of course

Ah, recollection!   What I actually said is a little different.  This, for example.  And no, the story's not based on Twitter.  That was just an early expression of it.