tonyh29 Posted December 4, 2012 Share Posted December 4, 2012 Yeah I read the bit where you said I made it up and I replied to you saying the very article you pasted in without reading contained the line I had quoted A few days back I was a UKIP supporter now I'm back to being a Tory again .... Wish you'd make your mind up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I'd suggest that both parties are struggling when it comes to NHS spending commitments. Surely what it shows is the public are easily **** around when given figures by parties and governments (real terms increases by x over y when z is in town and so on)? The Tories made a great play of saying that they would increase spending in real terms for each year of the parliament knowing that they would be working from the reduced baseline of the previous government's plan and would then only have to work their way up from that level. Seems like both teams of shysters ought to get it in the neck for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Can't really argue with that , the other NHS story (circle healthcare) would have been the better one for Drat to go with rather than taking the Milliband approach of going with a headline that sounds good as a sound bite but contains no substance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Yeah I read the bit where you said I made it up and I replied to you saying the very article you pasted in without reading contained the line I had quoted A few days back I was a UKIP supporter now I'm back to being a Tory again .... Wish you'd make your mind up Tony - what are you talking about again? The claims of the Tory party have been found out and that is it pure and simple. You may try to deflect and spin away from that but the reality is that they have failed again on NHS. I really cannot see why you fail to see that. The fact that it was a non-political body that caught them out really does piss on your and their chips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I'd suggest that both parties are struggling when it comes to NHS spending commitments. Surely what it shows is the public are easily **** around when given figures by parties and governments (real terms increases by x over y when z is in town and so on)? The Tories made a great play of saying that they would increase spending in real terms for each year of the parliament knowing that they would be working from the reduced baseline of the previous government's plan and would then only have to work their way up from that level. Seems like both teams of shysters ought to get it in the neck for this. Yes. And the spending figure isn't the point anyway. If they spend more by paying 50% more for the same drugs, or (as Labour did) give consultants lots more money for doing the same as or less than they were doing before, things haven't improved. The real point about the NHS is that the tories are trying to dismantle as much of it as they can before they get thrown out. That's what should concern us, not fractions of a percent up or down in spending. However, on their big pledge about cutting the deficit not the NHS, in fact they are cutting the NHS not the deficit. Since they invited us to judge them on this pledge, we should do so. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Osborne's economic strategy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PauloBarnesi Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 a tree that has roots at the top? Or am I missing something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Yes. And the spending figure isn't the point anyway. If they spend more by paying 50% more for the same drugs, or (as Labour did) give consultants lots more money for doing the same as or less than they were doing before, things haven't improved. The real point about the NHS is that the tories are trying to dismantle as much of it as they can before they get thrown out. That's what should concern us, not fractions of a percent up or down in spending. However, on their big pledge about cutting the deficit not the NHS, in fact they are cutting the NHS not the deficit. Since they invited us to judge them on this pledge, we should do so. What would you do with the NHS out of interest , is it a case of chucking more money at it and hoping it fixes it or would you try and restructure it by some means or another ... preferably not one that makes MP's rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PauloBarnesi Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 We need to spend a fortune on prevention of health problems. Which will save an even bigger fortune in the end... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Peter Oborne on R5: the worst benefits cheat is a morally better person than Philip Green and similar wealthy taxdodgers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 What would you do with the NHS out of interest , is it a case of chucking more money at it and hoping it fixes it or would you try and restructure it by some means or another ... preferably not one that makes MP's rich Wow, where to start? Not something you can answer in a post on a message board. But a few things might include: Remove the financial millstone of PFI contracts by cancelling them. Better control of big pharma. Sort out the lack of community-based alternatives that makes eg people with dementia and spinal injury stay too long in unsuitable hospitals at greater cost. Stop setting daft targets for easily countable things, and get back to developing an ethos of care which will give back the pride NHS workers had but are in some cases losing. And as Paulo says, more preventive services. That would need to include tackling the far wider issues of poverty which create poor health and early death - you can't separate this from the wider society and economy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colhint Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 not sure you can just remove PFI without going to court. And can any government of any colour be seen to renege on contracts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 yeah PFI would be high on my list as well With reagrds to prevention I was looking at some data that I have access to through work and whilst the data is a few years old in the UK consumers are (were) spending £253m a year on Gastro / intestinal medicine £321m on vitamins of course not every gastro problem is down to diet but it does suggest too much "junk" is being consumed by people (me being one of them !!) I can't find the figures for it now , but I'm sure I had some data on fresh fruit and veg consumption in the Uk ..in the NE of England it was down in the single digit as a % of the population of that area !! I never really got the point of targets on health stuff ... my local hospital you walk in tell someone what is wrong and then they give you a ticket , like you get in some supermarkets at the meat counter ... a junior then comes out at some point and asks you questions and then buggers off .. you then set there for 4+ hours waiting for a doctor .. but , the hospital is proudly telling everyone that patients are seen within xx minutes and the targets are being met ..it's just a bit pointless tbh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PauloBarnesi Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 And as Paulo says, more preventive services. That would need to include tackling the far wider issues of poverty which create poor health and early death - you can't separate this from the wider society and economy. We need people to become more educated and also to understand the NHS isn't a cure all for health issues... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 not sure you can just remove PFI without going to court. And can any government of any colour be seen to renege on contracts? they do it all the time i think BAE was interesting though as the government tried to cancel some contracts and BAE said you can do what you want but we are still going to build it and you still have to pay for it ( this was according to my friend who is in quite a senior role there , but probably still requires a pinch of salt ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted December 5, 2012 Moderator Share Posted December 5, 2012 We need people to become more educated and also to understand the NHS isn't a cure all for health issues... I totally agree with this, the future of the NHS would be be best served by taking a longer term view and focussing on education and prevention. At the moment one of the biggest failings (one of a number) in our education system is the lack of focus on and time devoted to teaching future generations about health and money. If we really want to make this country better, to really change things and to improve things for future generations these are the things that need immediate attention. Our education system needs to be teaching children from an early age the importance of diet and exercise, more emphasis needs to be on life style and diet choices. So much of the current NHS spending is the result of poor diet, lack of exercise and drink. Instead of spending money constantly on treatment we should be looking more at cure. Now if savings are made in the treatment of some of the areas of spending that may not be essential that Tony mentioned and is instead put into education and trying to stop future generations making the same mistakes now that would be real progress. It would be a policy that makes sense. The same applies to educating kids about money, about debt, interest, apr and everything that goes with the modern world so people stop getting themselves into trouble thanks to a combination of ignorance and Wonga loans. If this or any government took this sort of approach, a genuine long term attempt at change I would support them wholeheartedly no matter what colour tie they wore but none of them will. Labour will throw money at the problem while the Tory's will simply cut and try to introduce back door privatisation while also cutting spending in education and not tackling the route problems. Unfortunately politicians (from all parties) are rarely interested in real change, in changes that could take a generation or two to really reward us. They are too short term, too self serving, too interested in feathering their own nests or ensuring their re-election. The NHS and educations failings are themselves symptoms of the failings of our political parties and our political system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 as i can't like your post ..... ^^ This Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PauloBarnesi Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I totally agree with this, the future of the NHS would be be best served by taking a longer term view and focussing on education and prevention. At the moment one of the biggest failings (one of a number) in our education system is the lack of focus on and time devoted to teaching future generations about health and money. If we really want to make this country better, to really change things and to improve things for future generations these are the things that need immediate attention. Our education system needs to be teaching children from an early age the importance of diet and exercise, more emphasis needs to be on life style and diet choices. So much of the current NHS spending is the result of poor diet, lack of exercise and drink. Instead of spending money constantly on treatment we should be looking more at cure. Now if savings are made in the treatment of some of the areas of spending that may not be essential that Tony mentioned and is instead put into education and trying to stop future generations making the same mistakes now that would be real progress. It would be a policy that makes sense. The same applies to educating kids about money, about debt, interest, apr and everything that goes with the modern world so people stop getting themselves into trouble thanks to a combination of ignorance and Wonga loans. If this or any government took this sort of approach, a genuine long term attempt at change I would support them wholeheartedly no matter what colour tie they wore but none of them will. Labour will throw money at the problem while the Tory's will simply cut and try to introduce back door privatisation while also cutting spending in education and not tackling the route problems. Unfortunately politicians (from all parties) are rarely interested in real change, in changes that could take a generation or two to really reward us. They are too short term, too self serving, too interested in feathering their own nests or ensuring their re-election. The NHS and educations failings are themselves symptoms of the failings of our political parties and our political system. Yes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colhint Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 I'll vote for Paulo. I also think it might be an idea to make the NHS an independent body, bit like the BEEB. have a board of governers. make it almost untouchable by MP's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted December 5, 2012 Share Posted December 5, 2012 Yes, that paragon of virtue that is the BBC ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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