Bolitics The New Condem Government

[tonyh29]

He's making things much, much worse.

can anyone actually make that call (short term then arguably yes they can ) ... he may not be making them better (as of yet) but do we know that any alternative would have been better ?

take Brown/ Darling and rescuing the banks ... everyone thought they were right to do so at the time ( well not everyone but you get the general picture) ... could it not be argued that 3 years down track they actually made things much much worse ? 3 years ago Labour were deemed to be more credible on the economy , now even their donors don't trust them with their money

I'm not aware of any economic miracles going about at present , if we had a genie in a bottle then Brown probably bullied him , stole his bottle and then sold it for 6 pence ... so short term I'm not sure the long term is clear (apologies for Drat school of English here :winkold:) ...

[bickster]

Tony Bliar is a Tory

Not quite, but certainly more centre ground than red Ed.

That's what made Nu Labour sort of electable....

yes quite, Nu-Labour under Bliar & Brown were Tories, Thatcher's policies in the main which are being continued to this day. Cameron's Tories are just a bit more extreme, that's all.

[tonyh29]

Brown were Tories

OT but I read the other day it was Brown who proposed giving Thatcher a state funeral :shock:

[drat01]

can anyone actually make that call (short term then arguably yes they can ) ... he may not be making them better (as of yet) but do we know that any alternative would have been better ?

Ignoring your Ahhh But Labour thing again :-), interesting the news out of Ireland last week and the impacts that the cuts made there. This was the economy you remember that Gid..... Osborne praised not so long back, now their deficit is a lot more with some pretty extreme cuts. There is a lot of talk about have they cut too much too soon?

[tonyh29]

Ignoring your Ahhh But Labour thing again Smile

tbf it was a valid example in this case

I seem to recall Alex Salmond famously cited that he wanted Scotland to join "Europe’s arc of prosperity, with Ireland to the west, Iceland to the north."

it just goes to show how one minute an economy is a beacon for us all and the next a burden ... Australia will be the next shining example that everyone holds up ..until they go tits up and make more MP's / economists looks foolish

[Awol]

interesting the news out of Ireland last week and the impacts that the cuts made there. This was the economy you remember that Gid..... Osborne praised not so long back,

Quite a while back actually, for context it was around the same time Brown was still preaching no more boom and bust. Quite a lot has changed since then I'm sure you'd agree.

now their deficit is a lot more with some pretty extreme cuts. There is a lot of talk about have they cut too much too soon?

Their deficit, likes ours, is the product of **** politicians bailing out failed banks with taxpayers money. An absolutely lunatic policy which, I recall, you backed with almost religious zeal...

EDIT: And if you hadn't noticed Ireland are having to cut savagely in line with the instructions from the EU Commissars who now run their country. Exactly where we'd be now had Labour been re-elected.

[snowychap]

Well I would have thought if it were in such common use, it would have been mentioned. Someone like Dennis Skinner would have surely picked up on it and it would have been mentioned in Hansard. Hansard is merely a record of parliamentary debate in Westminster, something I would have thought would have been useful in political discussion.

Save for the speaker (or his deputies), referring to other members by their names (even changed ones) is a matter likely to find a member disciplined (ironically by being named ;-)).

[bickster]

EDIT: And if you hadn't noticed Ireland are having to cut savagely in line with the instructions from the EU Commissars who now run their country. Exactly where we'd be now had Labour been re-elected.

Didn't realise Labour would have made us join the Euro by now.

Was that in their manifesto?

[Awol]

EDIT: And if you hadn't noticed Ireland are having to cut savagely in line with the instructions from the EU Commissars who now run their country. Exactly where we'd be now had Labour been re-elected.

Didn't realise Labour would have made us join the Euro by now.

Was that in their manifesto?

No, but had Labour got back in then Darling (who in fairness to him seemed to understand the need for major cuts) wouldn't have survived in post as Chancellor - as his statements since confirm. That would have put Ed Balls and his plan to massively increase debt into No. 11.

Our credit rating would have dropped off a cliff with the attendant rise in borrowing costs, the same downward spiral to bailouts we've seen in the PIGS.

Granted our overlords would have been the IMF only (instead of the IMF/EU/ECB troika currently demolishing democracy across Europe) but the result is still the same.

[drat01]

No, but had Labour got back in then Darling (who in fairness to him seemed to understand the need for major cuts) wouldn't have survived in post as Chancellor - as his statements since confirm. That would have put Ed Balls and his plan to massively increase debt into No. 11.

Our credit rating would have dropped off a cliff with the attendant rise in borrowing costs, the same downward spiral to bailouts we've seen in the PIGS.

Granted our overlords would have been the IMF only (instead of the IMF/EU/ECB troika currently demolishing democracy across Europe) but the result is still the same.

What bollox. You state that as if it were fact and as some sort of poor justification for your views.

Labour had different plans of dealing with the debt issues that the UK face and these plans were arguably more adaptable than the Tory ones when dealing with ever changing world conditions. Again though funny how the justification for the Tory heavy handed cuts is to say "ahhh but Labour". It's becoming quite tiresome now, it's as though the Tory supporters realise they what is happening with Gideon et al is actually pretty crap

[andyjsg]

No, but had Labour got back in then Darling (who in fairness to him seemed to understand the need for major cuts) wouldn't have survived in post as Chancellor - as his statements since confirm. That would have put Ed Balls and his plan to massively increase debt into No. 11.

Our credit rating would have dropped off a cliff with the attendant rise in borrowing costs, the same downward spiral to bailouts we've seen in the PIGS.

Granted our overlords would have been the IMF only (instead of the IMF/EU/ECB troika currently demolishing democracy across Europe) but the result is still the same.

What bollox. You state that as if it were fact and as some sort of poor justification for your views.

Labour had different plans of dealing with the debt issues that the UK face and these plans were arguably more adaptable than the Tory ones when dealing with ever changing world conditions. Again though funny how the justification for the Tory heavy handed cuts is to say "ahhh but Labour". It's becoming quite tiresome now, it's as though the Tory supporters realise they what is happening with Gideon et al is actually pretty crap

I assume by "different" you mean "none"?

[drat01]

I assume by "different" you mean "none"?

Eh? Again what the hell are you talking about? - Labour had published plans (in its manifesto), the Tories had published plans even the Lib Dems had plans.

Maybe you subscribe to the Tory Plan A = only plan approach that Gideon and Cameron are taking? Maybe you can contribute by justifying how that is working? What do you think of the reports from Ireland about how they approached dealing with their deficit? What do you think about Gideon's complete U turn when talking about the Irish economy? - You know some of the real things in this thread not some made up stuff

[andyjsg]

You were obviously trying to make some link between Abbott, Labour and Racism. To then claim you were not is frankly absurd

Nope my point was about hypocrisy, Im not sure it was that hard to fathom out.

Secondly who is comparing Cameron's comments to Abbott's? Only you as far as I can see. In a thread about the Con Dem Gvmt, the issue of crass comments from Cameron was raised. A Tory supporter, Tony, tried (and failed) to say that this was in some way an attempt by his opponents to deflect from Abbott. The whole thing about Cameron, (and previously from Boris and Gideon) was that their actions, language and the like were not those of people who are supposedly in power and did nothing more than to enforce the view that they are in the "flashman" mould that people often liken them to.

Really, Im pretty sure you were the one comparing and I was saying you cant compare, school playground analogies with bare faced racism.

Thirdly you talk about left wing conspiracy? :-) - you are now in the realms of fantasy land. Where has anyone said anything about lies and Gideon and stamp duty? That is a pretty big claim, it would be good if you could actually show that. Any chance? His performance as Chencellor is poor as I have said on many occasion, the lack of plan B etc etc, but that relates nowhere to what you are claiming.

I have no idea where you went off to here, I didnt use the word "conspiracy" I used thewword "conspiracist" which makes the whole statement very different do you not think? You should really learn to read things.....

As for the stamp duty thing http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/politics/article-24025519-osborne-will-take-on-stamp-duty-dodgers.do

Lastly your comment re open minded views, is actually a LOL moment. I suggest you look at your own comments for a perfect example of a quite narrow minded view.

Because I question your ideals and thoughts? Again you went on the attack, proved my point nicely.

As for the Boris thing, it made me smile which is why I posted the link, it makes me smile that Bloomberg and Boris were willing to give coding a go and Livingstone made excuses as to why he couldn't. Sounds like someone from the Labour party to me.

[andyjsg]

I assume by "different" you mean "none"?

Eh? Again what the hell are you talking about? - Labour had published plans (in its manifesto), the Tories had published plans even the Lib Dems had plans.

Maybe you subscribe to the Tory Plan A = only plan approach that Gideon and Cameron are taking? Maybe you can contribute by justifying how that is working? What do you think of the reports from Ireland about how they approached dealing with their deficit? What do you think about Gideon's complete U turn when talking about the Irish economy? - You know some of the real things in this thread not some made up stuff

Manifesto's are complete bollox, if you havent learnt that by now you are even more naive than you seem.

I think we can safely say that in hindsight it is easy to talk about what the parties thought about the boom year and in the end all parties were pretty much wrong (apart from Cable - on one of his many predictions - if you throw enough shit and all that).

As you seem to have chosen to ignore others comments I dont know why I need to type it out again. Summary, Ireland is under tough financial sactions from europe which is making it difficult for them. If we had followed Balls position we would have ended up in the same place and having our cuts chosen by the lenders. But I guess you will ignore it again, so why did I bother?

[drat01]

You have completely lost me now Andy.

con·spir·a·cist (kn-spîr-sst)

n.

One holding a conspiracy theory.

Was that Stamp Duty thing discussed anywhere other than the ES? - Unlike the Tory spin machine to miss a trick if it's a real important vote grabber. If Gideon et al can cut back on any sort of Tax avoidance and evasion then well done. It's been promised before, like declaring that you are no longer a Tax exile, but somehow things get forgotten about.

I'm struggling with your justification in that article re Boris as some sort of attack on Ken Livingston and Labour. How exactly does that work and how exactly does that affect the Labour party and people who prefer some of their policies?

Maybe a bit more of justification of why you think Con Dem policies are right is the better option as they are the ones (unfortunately) that are killing the country at this moment?

[drat01]

Manifesto's are complete bollox, if you havent learnt that by now you are even more naive than you seem.

:-) - priceless

I think we can safely say that in hindsight it is easy to talk about what the parties thought about the boom year and in the end all parties were pretty much wrong (apart from Cable - on one of his many predictions - if you throw enough shit and all that).

As you seem to have chosen to ignore others comments I dont know why I need to type it out again. Summary, Ireland is under tough financial sactions from europe which is making it difficult for them. If we had followed Balls position we would have ended up in the same place and having our cuts chosen by the lenders. But I guess you will ignore it again, so why did I bother?

Lost me completely is what you are trying to justify now. On one hand you can't use hindsight and then on the other it's perfectly right to do so?

Again your justification for (IMO) the failing policies of the Tory party (endorsed by Glegg) is that you say "ahhh but Labour" "Balls would have done .....". The question re Ireland was a valid one in that as Gideon has said they are a key part of the UK economy, and they have followed / been forced to go through a series of major cutbacks. The results of these seem to be negative in terms of its result according to the recent figures, and as such the question should be asked is this the best way forward and can other countries learn from this apparently failed idea. Agree?

It's funny how people say "Ball's would have done this...." "Ball's would have done that ....", and then use this as some sort of fact that it would have happened. Correct me if I am wrong but was Ed Balls the Chancellor? Does Gvmt policy (assuming Labour had remained in power) then have to follow what Ed Balls put forward as an idea - despite it being different to nearly all the other Labour party leaders? What about the views published today by Milliband about how the approach to deficit reduction should be carried out?

Maybe the reality would have been a phased / slower paced approach with targets rather than the weak and vulnerable like we see now, but the stronger in the society, those who can take the pain a bit more? Bit of a plan B don't you think?

[andyjsg]

You have completely lost me now Andy.

con·spir·a·cist (kn-spîr-sst)

n.

One holding a conspiracy theory.

This was just a comment on some the links used for fact, whilst I use the evening standard. Big paper here in London, on a number of occassions those of the left leaning persuasion have used random bloggist of which one was convinced he was being watched by the CIA.

I'm struggling with your justification in that article re Boris as some sort of attack on Ken Livingston and Labour. How exactly does that work and how exactly does that affect the Labour party and people who prefer some of their policies?

I was taking the piss. The article made me smile as Ken automatically gave an excuse to not trying out coding. It was an irrelevant and jovial attack on labour. I was not being serious....

Maybe a bit more of justification of why you think Con Dem policies are right is the better option as they are the ones (unfortunately) that are killing the country at this moment?

I think this will just end up being an ideological arguement. I think the Tories arent perfect but they are steadying the ship and have successfully stopped a run on the country unlike what has happened to even the bigger players in europe (France close to losing credit rating despite the economy being in better condition than ours). I also believe that a lot of people struglling financially have put themselves into the position so have little sympathy. I also belive there are skilled jobs out there but people are to lazy to learn to do these tasks.

[andyjsg]

Manifesto's are complete bollox, if you havent learnt that by now you are even more naive than you seem.

:-) - priceless

I think we can safely say that in hindsight it is easy to talk about what the parties thought about the boom year and in the end all parties were pretty much wrong (apart from Cable - on one of his many predictions - if you throw enough shit and all that).

As you seem to have chosen to ignore others comments I dont know why I need to type it out again. Summary, Ireland is under tough financial sactions from europe which is making it difficult for them. If we had followed Balls position we would have ended up in the same place and having our cuts chosen by the lenders. But I guess you will ignore it again, so why did I bother?

Lost me completely is what you are trying to justify now. On one hand you can't use hindsight and then on the other it's perfectly right to do so?

Again your justification for (IMO) the failing policies of the Tory party (endorsed by Glegg) is that you say "ahhh but Labour" "Balls would have done .....". The question re Ireland was a valid one in that as Gideon has said they are a key part of the UK economy, and they have followed / been forced to go through a series of major cutbacks. The results of these seem to be negative in terms of its result according to the recent figures, and as such the question should be asked is this the best way forward and can other countries learn from this apparently failed idea. Agree?

It's funny how people say "Ball's would have done this...." "Ball's would have done that ....", and then use this as some sort of fact that it would have happened. Correct me if I am wrong but was Ed Balls the Chancellor? Does Gvmt policy (assuming Labour had remained in power) then have to follow what Ed Balls put forward as an idea - despite it being different to nearly all the other Labour party leaders? What about the views published today by Milliband about how the approach to deficit reduction should be carried out?

Maybe the reality would have been a phased / slower paced approach with targets rather than the weak and vulnerable like we see now, but the stronger in the society, those who can take the pain a bit more? Bit of a plan B don't you think?

I think "Ball's would have done this...." is the same as any ideological comment about what the Tories do and dont want to do. In the end it is all speculation from both sides on what the other would have done or is doing. I think he would of just kept it going the way it was or even worse as thats what he said he would do. It's only now that Ed has realised that people have seen through the empty policies and that he has to come up with something or find himself under a few votes of confidence in the coming months.

I still think the government is doing what they can. It doesnt help when the Unions attempt ridiculous demands when their mates arent in power anymore. I would like Cameron to crush the Unions but he wont do that. I would like them to fix the welfare state but again they are fiddling with it to keep the perception that they are doing good rather than just getting on with it.

I think things like HS2 (a Labour plan originally) are a great idea (see that I praise the Labour party) to create jobs and at the same time improve public services. I think they should be doing more things like this to keep our own economy moving forward and get people working.

[snowychap]

Our credit rating would have dropped off a cliff with the attendant rise in borrowing costs, the same downward spiral to bailouts we've seen in the PIGS.

Summary, Ireland is under tough financial sactions from europe which is making it difficult for them. If we had followed Balls position we would have ended up in the same place and having our cuts chosen by the lenders.

You both state these paths as though they were incontrovertible yet they would appear anything but (especially the repeated 'we would end up like Ireland/Greece and so on' claims that even coalition ministers appear to have cooled on).

The UK may have lost its 'AAA' rating but I'm not sure it would have made much difference to borrowing costs (a downgrade itself didn't seem to send things spiralling for the US and various downgrades haven't appeared to do that to Japan).

[tonyh29]

Correct me if I am wrong but was Ed Balls the Chancellor?

only cause Brown bottled his plan to sack Darling :winkold: