Bolitics The New Condem Government

[peterms]

Therefore we must make cuts (the exact opposite is true; we should be spending, to counteract the recession).

True, National Debt isn't always a bad thing IF a government is borrowing to invest in infrastructure ..however we are currently borrowing to pay off debt which is doing nothing to encourage economic growth .. so in that regard the government have it right in trying to reduce the debt.. with the bank bailouts the debt is close to 150% of GDP ..that is way to high imo

Excellent.

Can I suggest we agree on the following propositions.

"National Debt isn't always a bad thing IF a government is borrowing to invest in infrastructure"

Yes. Government investment in infrastructure is always required. No private actor will do it unless they think they can keep all the proceeds or deny others access.

It doesn't follow that government investment is always sensible or well managed. Sometimes it is done to benefit cronies of government, like Halliburton, or Crapita, etc.

"borrowing to pay off debt which is doing nothing to encourage economic growth"

Yes, debt on government borrowing is unproductive (though to the extent that we own our own debt, about 50% of UK debt being owned by UK individuals and institutions as I recall and I could be wrong, then at least we/our pension funds get the benefit of that rent/appropriation of value).

"the government have it right in trying to reduce the debt"

Yes, we don't want to pay interest charges unless there is no possible alternative. Which should make any alternative pretty attractive, don't you think?

And we disagree on

"...with the bank bailouts the debt is close to 150% of GDP..." But that's just factual. See this for a simple statement of debt levels. Hopefully that factual point won't detain us.

Which leaves us with:

You think that we should reduce the debt by cutting spending, I assume.

I think we should do it by repudiating bank debts, and by ceasing to issue bonds to cover future deficits. As long as there is underused productive capacity in the economy, follow the advice of President Lincoln and issue money, not bonds. It's not inflationary, despite what mama Friedman says, it means we can do what we plan without paying unearned profits to parasites who have done nothing to create wealth, and it also helps rebalance the economy between the financial and the real sectors, which is what Davy Baby says he wants.

Who could possibly disagree, and on what grounds?

[snowychap]

we are currently borrowing to pay off debt

Are we?

We are borrowing money and we are paying off debt.

If we take a longish period (say the last 100 years), in how many years did we not borrow money (running a surplus does not necessarily qualify) and in how many years did we not pay off debt?

I have no idea about the answer btw but I would hazard a guess that's it a small, if not round, number.

[Chindie]

This man...

is all that stands between us and being like Portugal.

...apparently.

[tonyh29]

Osborne has been written off before he even started the job , you could say he's the governments Houllier judges without ever being given a chance by many

To a degree I think he will end up being a "lucky" chancellor as much as anything , despite promises by a previous chancellor about ending Boom and Bust the cycle is still continuing and Osborne will most likely be the one that stumbles onto the Boom

But like many people in office , he is doing some good and some not so good but worth thinking about before passing judgement so quickly ... some talked Gordon up as the best chancellor of our time ... maybe we have to let history judge Osborne rather than a football forum ?

[Awol]

maybe we have to let history judge Osborne rather than a football forum ?

That's a bit of a double standard really mate. Just as we rightly slated Darling for being Brown's bitch, and Brown for a being an economically illiterate mental case, it's fair to say that Osborne appears to be out of his depth without waiting for whatever views history has to offer.

That's unless we bin all bollitics threads because it's only a football forum..

[peterms]

This man...

is all that stands between us and being like Portugal.

...apparently.

If you could add a Restoration wig and a black mole to that face, it would be just perfect.

[peterms]

Osborne has been written off before he even started the job , you could say he's the governments Houllier judges without ever being given a chance by many

To a degree I think he will end up being a "lucky" chancellor as much as anything , despite promises by a previous chancellor about ending Boom and Bust the cycle is still continuing and Osborne will most likely be the one that stumbles onto the Boom

But like many people in office , he is doing some good and some not so good but worth thinking about before passing judgement so quickly ... some talked Gordon up as the best chancellor of our time ... maybe we have to let history judge Osborne rather than a football forum ?

No, we can't afford the luxury of letting some **** dilettante mess up the economy for generations, so that years later we can drone "Well, we gave him a fair crack of the whip, but he really didn't know his arse from his elbow".

He has done and said enough for us to form a view. He's a clueless waster who is in his position through patronage and nepotism, he is positively dangerous to our country, and he must go now.

[tonyh29]

Yeah I got the point he's from privileged background and Mel Gibson has taught us through the art of film just how incompetent they are but that aside , what specifically has Osborne has Osborne done that has caused the counties current economic situation ?

He put up vat , which was inevitable whoever got in power

Hes tried to cut the countries debt

He's cut corporation tax for business

Cuts in N.I

As I said he's not been flawless but nor as he been the buffoon that you appear to believe he is.What is impressive about Osborne is that he has thoughtful policies which form a coherent Conservative vision. He, more than Cameron, believes in low taxes.

[tonyh29]

maybe we have to let history judge Osborne rather than a football forum ?

That's a bit of a double standard really mate. Just as we rightly slated Darling for being Brown's bitch, and Brown for a being an economically illiterate mental case, it's fair to say that Osborne appears to be out of his depth without waiting for whatever views history has to offer.

That's unless we bin all bollitics threads because it's only a football forum..

Not really , History HAS judged Brown and found him lacking , Osbornes policies have had less than a year to bare fruit... Like I say he's being judged for who or what he is , not what he has done

[Davkaus]

Sure, Tony, you certainly never criticised the previous governcunts until "history had judged them", right?

Hypocrisy? Never.

[peterms]

Yeah I got the point he's from privileged background and Mel Gibson has taught us through the art of film just how incompetent they are but that aside , what specifically has Osborne has Osborne done that has caused the counties current economic situation ?

He put up vat , which was inevitable whoever got in power

Hes tried to cut the countries debt

He's cut corporation tax for business

Cuts in N.I

As I said he's not been flawless but nor as he been the buffoon that you appear to believe he is.What is impressive about Osborne is that he has thoughtful policies which form a coherent Conservative vision. He, more than Cameron, believes in low taxes.

Being from a privileged background is a fact, not a criticism. The point about Osborne is that he wallows contentedly in that background, making available opportunities to his mates in the City. Compare that with Disraeli, another tory from a privileged background, who was concerned enough about social inequality to write books about it, and put at risk his standing in his own party by doing so.

What Osborne is doing is massively exaggerating the scale of the financial problem for his own ends. He is using it as cover for a wholly unnecessary "austerity" budget (austerity for the many, not the few), lying about the figures (the house of commons committee caught him out on this, it's even on youtube now), and engaging in a redistribution of wealth and power from poor to rich.

It's his role, it's what he's there for, he has no qualms about it, and neither should we have qualms about throwing him and his mates off the Thames Barrier at the earliest opportunity.

[Gringo]

But this tory govt, they're not all that bad

Torygraph"]Mr Letwin, the Prime Minister’s key policy adviser, allegedly told Mr Johnson: “We don’t want more people from Sheffield flying away on cheap holidays.”

[Awol]

It's his role, it's what he's there for, he has no qualms about it, and neither should we have qualms about throwing him and his mates off the Thames Barrier at the earliest opportunity.

Agreed, along with the equally privileged last lot whose key policies they are continuing. Until we stop selecting our politicians from the most vacuous elements of society then simply having elections will change nothing.

[tonyh29]

But this tory govt, they're not all that bad

Torygraph"]Mr Letwin, the Prime Minister’s key policy adviser, allegedly told Mr Johnson: “We don’t want more people from Sheffield flying away on cheap holidays.”

he has a point ..is it really fair to inflict people from Sheffield on the rest of the world .. What do you think Drat

[Demitri_C]

well at least they are assisting the lowest paid with minmium wage..

[avfc89]

I can't wait to see Nick Clegg repackage himself as a Liberal Tory in a few years.

[bickster]

I can't wait to see Nick Clegg hang himself from a rather large Oak Tree when he loses his seat at the next election.

Fixed that for you ;-)

[peterms]

well at least they are assisting the lowest paid with minmium wage..

Minimum wage is increasing by 15p, or 2.5%. This is slightly more than half the rate of inflation measured as CPI (4.4%), and less than half of RPI (5.5%).

Unemployment is rising. Because people are concerned about rising prices and job security, they are cutting back on their spending. Obviously. But it wasn't obvious to the business brains who signed a letter six months ago in support of Osborne's cuts, who now say "they have growing concerns about the state of the economy, warning of weak growth and rising inflation ahead... the government's growth targets were too optimistic... tough times ahead as soaring inflation dents consumer spending power ...doubt about the ability of the private sector to create as many jobs as hoped..."

Of those jobs which are "created" (for which in many cases a more accurate term would be "displaced" or "outsourced" because they replace a job destroyed elsewhere), many will be on the minimum wage rather than the higher wage which people would previously have got - so they will continue to cut spending, not spend more. And these geniuses calling for cuts, the heads of Next, M&S, Asda, Carphone Warehouse, are starting to realise, slowly and dimly, like a flickering candle in a very large dark space, that the hoped-for growth is illusory. Incompetent, witless, drooling fuckwits.

[blandy]

...Incompetent, witless, drooling fuckwits.

And they've realised that they made a complete arse of the Strategic Defence review yet they are just shuffling the deckchairs

...Downing Street says the compromise on the 2011 budget ... to accept unspecified savings and delay some programmes, such as the purchase of Chinook helicopters, will exacerbate the MoD’s future financial problems in years to come.

Malcolm Chalmers of the Royal United Services Institute said: “Balancing the books through freezing and postponing spending may save money in the short term. But it is not sustainable, risks a significant decline in operational readiness and effectiveness, and will store up problems for future years.

“The funding gap left by the SDSR remains. So, absent more Treasury money, the MoD will still have to look at further capability cuts, however difficult this will be, given the operations in Afghanistan and Libya.”

...some planned spending on new equipment will be delayed – a favourite wheeze in the cash-strapped MoD. A purchase of Chinook helicopters for Afghanistan will go ahead, but the revised delivery dates mean the aircraft will not arrive before British troops leave Afghanistan. An upgrade to the Warrior armoured vehicle will also be “moved to the right”.

The MoD will also be able to keep any money it saves in negotiations with industry over expected cancellation costs for programmes such as the Nimrod reconnaissance aircraft.

Defence chiefs are still pressing for a medium-term reassessment of the defence review in light of the upheavals in the Arab world... the uncertain security environment predicted for 2020 “has already arrived”.

http://on.ft.com/fwK0Lu

[peterms]

For those who want to read the articles but don't want to pay for access beyond the 10 articles a month you get for free, it's worth knowing that the paywall doesn't block links from Google.

So you can go to the main FT page, copy the title of an article, paste it in google and then open it from there. Alternatively, if part of an article is quoted as above, copy a phrase and search on that, eg searching for "the purchase of Chinook helicopters, will exacerbate the MoD’s future financial problems in years to come" gives this, and the first link goes to the article, bypassing the paywall. If you can be arsed.