Bolitics The New Condem Government

[tonyh29]

Personally, I think he's put Clegg before Party, an entirely different thing.

in what way ?

Do you think he will defect to the Tory party at some point ?

There is a lot of knee jerk right now and The Lib Dem support is down , but if there is a turnaround , which with the policies being implemented I can see happening in around the next 2-3 years , then Clegg and the Lib Dems could come out of it looking quite good ... I think the Libs actually have Win / Win about now ..

[snowychap]

Thing is Ian, on benefits they did spend a lot of time looking into reforming them

Did they? :?

Duncan Smith claimed to have been looking at it since he once visited Glasgow (or wherever) but, basically, they are looking to implement Freud's back of a fag packet plan that the Labour government were already implementing plus the 'universal credit' (and it strikes me that this is only so attractive to Tories because it'll be a backdoor way to further decrease payments).

I'm sure I read some comments from CSJ people that the plans that he and they had worked on were often quite unlike the ones he has decided to go with, too.

The DWP reports previously commissioned to look at housing benefit seem to have been quite often ignored but, wherever possible, select parts have been cherry picked and distorted to support any policy (and that's without going on about them misleading/lying about data).

Now, whether the reforms are right or wrong will depend upon one's point of view but I really fail to see the evidence that they did spend a lot of time looking in to reforming them.

[snowychap]

Personally, I think he's put Clegg before Party, an entirely different thing.

He's certainly, in my view, put himself before honesty, decency and integrity.

[Jon]

Personally, I think he's put Clegg before Party, an entirely different thing.

in what way ?

I think the Labrador will be rewarded for his "loyalty" to this Tory Govt.

[

Do you think he will defect to the Tory party at some point ?

It's certainly not out of the question. I don't think he'll be getting re-elected in Sheffield anyway ....

[Jon]

then Clegg and the Lib Dems could come out of it looking quite good ... I think the Libs actually have Win / Win about now ..

:shock:

I don't think that is a commonly held view Tone.

The Lib Dems are in open disarray.

ATM it's lose-lose for most of them (not in the Tory Govt's "inner circle"). Electorally and at a grass roots level, they're deep in the mire. Seeing as they are not going to steer this Tory govt in the direction their supporters woould want, then to retain their electoral support, they'll need to get out quick after May ....

[tonyh29]

I don't think that is a commonly held view Tone.

yeah but people are not being rational right about now .. Lib Dem voters feel hurt and betrayed and a lot of them aren't seeing the big picture through their outrage.... the election is 4 years away the current students will all be starting their jobs with investment banks , the new ones will have moved onto a new bandwagon .. and British Uni's will become better in the long term as well

The libs were a nothing party , there may be some upheaval but I think they will in the longer term come out of this as an alternative party .. lets face it Labour are in the wilderness until they remove Ed , so now is the right time for the Libs to make hay

[tonyh29]

I think the Labrador will be rewarded for his "loyalty" to this Tory Govt.

As was Prescott , and much as I loathe him , i do believe he went into politics to serve and for the greater good ...

the Peerage wasn't the reason he went in to Politics , it's just the trappings of the job .. though of course the hypocrisy of taking one has undone any good work he did perform during his years as an MP

[drat01]

Jon - its obvious that neither Clegg or Cameron were "ready" as many said before the election.

oh purlease , VT was like Fritzl given the keys to a new basement after the first TV debate and how Clegg was PM in waiting

The thing with Cameron is he has made a few mistakes but has been man enough to admit he got it wrong and put itright , Your Outraged from Sheffield act looks kinda pointless really as everyone and his dog knows you aren't looking at anything objectively .. Blandy to his credit is at least trying to be objective .

This government has already made many positives steps , and tbf Clegg has played a part in that , he's put country before party and in the long run the country will thank him for it ..

I disagree with "not being in this together" brigade though .. too much focus on the upper 1 % of the population , who lets face it were always gonna find creative ways of avoiding any liability .. the "kinda wealthy" have been (or will be) hit with Child support , the 50p tax is still here , and school vouchers are also being stop for those above a certain income ... so yes for 99% of the population we ARE in it together

Sorry Tony some silly comments there IMO

VT may well have had Clegg supporters but there were a lot of people who said before he was out of his depth, and Cameron and again and again we are seeing that.

You defend Cameron by saying that he has admitted he was wrong, no he has not. From the ludicrous gaffes re the WW2 thing and America to the U turns on School sports its never been any sort of admittance that he was wrong. Just the glib smile, the pre-arranged Q's at PMQ and opportunistic way that was his trait before the election

As for looking at things objectively, I am sorry but you are hilarious at times. You and a few other hardened Tory supporters justify anything that happens with this Gvmt by trying to deflect to obscure stories re the Labour party rather than either commending or condemning what this Gvmt do. This is exactly what you see in parliament, in councils and in the media. My family have been hit hard already by the ill thought out actions of this Gvmt. From what we knew and suspected before we expect more and the recent announcements from messers Cable and the other silver-coin grabbers mean that we are correct in knowing how this will affect so many.

As for claiming Clegg putting the country before himself, sorry you could not be more wrong if you tried. You base that theory on the fact that he has blindly followed Tory rhetoric, things that he felt was not correct for the country pre-election. He has a duty to the people who elected him, he has failed that. He has a duty to the people who voted for his party at the last election, he has failed them. He does not have a duty to follow Cameron, Osborne, IDS et al but he has.

"We are all in this together" is a phrase that Cameron will, no strike that knowing him maybe, regret, because time after time we have and will see that is complete and utter bollox

[drat01]

I don't think that is a commonly held view Tone.

yeah but people are not being rational right about now .. Lib Dem voters feel hurt and betrayed and a lot of them aren't seeing the big picture through their outrage.... the election is 4 years away the current students will all be starting their jobs with investment banks , the new ones will have moved onto a new bandwagon .. and British Uni's will become better in the long term as well

The libs were a nothing party , there may be some upheaval but I think they will in the longer term come out of this as an alternative party .. lets face it Labour are in the wilderness until they remove Ed , so now is the right time for the Libs to make hay

A perfect example Tony of the arrogance of the Tory party. Why is the election 4 year away? Oh that's correct because the minority Tory party changed the rules to ensure that they remain in power. To claim that LibDem voters are not seeing the bigger picture is outrageous. Basically what you are claiming is that the LibDem supporters are wrong and Tory are correct and until they follow like their parliamentary leaders then no good will happen. Maybe, like many are saying now, the "cack handed" way that policies are being imposed is wrong. Maybe the massive and vindictive cuts are wrong in how they are being targeted and imposed?

To suggest that all will be OK because current students will have jobs in investment banks is obviously a comment made as a joke, please tell us that it is.

You claim that British Uni's will be better off? The LibDem's don't think so, The only people who do are the Tory party and typically those who can afford massive increases in fees and the removal of support financial mechanisms

I love how you have to try and claim Labour are to be ignored under EM. The polls seem to show differently and the Tory party keep claiming that they have mandates from the electorate, something they clearly don't. The best option Cameron could do would be to ditch this Gvmt now and try and run as a minority or call another election. while he has the LibDem's catching the shit for his policies though and someone like Clegg who is happy to do that, he wont

[tonyh29]

by trying to deflect to obscure stories re the Labour party

no actually i'm just pointing out the hypocrisy in your outrage ... there is many a poster that will tell you that all the parties are all as bad as each other ... i'm happy to accept that , but for posts with "ludicrous " , "deflect " and general indignation then all one can do is point that poster towards the big "H" and hope they see the folly in what they are posting

To suggest that all will be OK because current students will have jobs in investment banks is obviously a comment made as a joke, please tell us that it is.

no i'm deadly serious , VT doesn't do humour :shock:

You base that theory on the fact that he has blindly followed Tory rhetoric

which you turn seem to be blindly basing on what Labour blogs are telling you

There have been instances where Clegg and the others have put the Lib Dem influence on certain Tory policy ..

If the lib supporters hold their nerve they may actually change British politics for good.

[Jon]

[drat01]

To keep in the season - and from the good chats that Tony and I have regularly I see him more as the Pantomime Villain

(some may be surprised by this but honestly me and Tony get on pretty damned good)

Boo Hisss .......

[tonyh29]

Pantomime Villain

Based on the other option in Jon's picture being your hand up my arse , i can live with that :-)

(and for stealing my pantomime line

[blandy]

There have been instances where Clegg and the others have put the Lib Dem influence on certain Tory policy ..

If the lib supporters hold their nerve they may actually change British politics for good.

Absolutely. This is what Clegg is hoping for. from a party viewpoint, the coalition was the way, the only way, the libs could do what they always said was the case - they were always being told "I'd vote for you, if I thought you'd get in", now they are in, to an extent, they can try and have an effect, so that they can answer that question about a vote for them being wasted. Yes they've made an arse of the student fees thing. Whether that gets remembered in 4 years time or whenever the next election no one knows, but all parties make mistakes and do the opposite of what they said they'd do - and in the past there hasn't been the caveat of coalition, where no single party can get all it wants.

The whole working together thing is what a large proportion of people said they wanted, at a time of national downturn in particular. People don't want politicians squabbling, they want them working together to make things better. The Libs could get rewarded for that. Not will, could.

[blandy]

If the Gov't can take this opportunity to remove some of the imbalances towards big business and shift things towards individual liberties (something Labour was extremely bad at) it will be a good thing.

Why would this government (or indeed any government) remove the imbalance towards big business?

Ah, yes, well, um......I know why they should, but why they would, er,.....maybe their might be a bit of an uprising - continuation of this UKuncut protest thingy, more riots, that kind of thing....no....it's not going to happen is it?

[tonyh29]

There have been instances where Clegg and the others have put the Lib Dem influence on certain Tory policy ..

If the lib supporters hold their nerve they may actually change British politics for good.

Absolutely. This is what Clegg is hoping for. from a party viewpoint, the coalition was the way, the only way, the libs could do what they always said was the case - they were always being told "I'd vote for you, if I thought you'd get in", now they are in, to an extent, they can try and have an effect, so that they can answer that question about a vote for them being wasted. Yes they've made an arse of the student fees thing. Whether that gets remembered in 4 years time or whenever the next election no one knows, but all parties make mistakes and do the opposite of what they said they'd do - and in the past there hasn't been the caveat of coalition, where no single party can get all it wants.

The whole working together thing is what a large proportion of people said they wanted, at a time of national downturn in particular. People don't want politicians squabbling, they want them working together to make things better. The Libs could get rewarded for that. Not will, could.

the wise owl has spoken and he's never wrong ( expect when disagreeing with me of course :winkold:)

[Jon]

The whole working together thing is what a large proportion of people said they wanted, at a time of national downturn in particular.

I kinda envisioned them working together with Labour Pete, not getting into bed with the tories, something I would not have voted for (I guess this position applies also to a great many Lib Dem voters).

going back on a lot of what they said pre election is not that great a great advert for democracy in action anyway, but that can "almost" be excused with a "they all do it" get out, which I don't like TBH.

I feel cheated by the Lib Dems in a lot of ways. They have not swayed the Tory juggernaught as much as I would have hopoed for when getting into bed with them, and from wher I'm stood, it just looks like they're doing things at the moment to stay "in power" with their more dominant partners, to the detrimnet of their actual values.

If they are in this farcical marriage after May, I really fear for their future as a viable party ....

[drat01]

Bloody PetHen's all the same

[TrentVilla]

The whole working together thing is what a large proportion of people said they wanted, at a time of national downturn in particular.

Did they? I'm not sure people really voted for a coalition government, they voted for a party just not in enough numbers for any one party and a coalition was the end result but I think very few people actually wanted it.

I really struggle to see much Lib Dem polish on Tory policy and though I didn't vote for them I'm fairly sure if I had I would feel cheated and seriously consider not voting for them in the future. Further than that though, I actually almost voted for them this time due to my disinchantment with Labour the only reason I didn't was because I thought voting for them was in effect voting for the Conservatives, that turned out to be true in a way I never imagined.

Some will forgive the Lib Dems, others won't but as Jon says if it continues past May I think the numbers in the later camp will increase quite rapidly.

[Jon]

I really think the Election results fecked up The Lib Dems, and any chance of them winning the electoral reform vote.

"Vote for Electoral Reform, and this is what you'll get more of. Us getting into bed with the Tories".

I'm a massive advocate of consensus politics and PR, and abolition/rfeorm of the H of L, but I simply don't see now how the Lib Dems can win this vote.

The Lib Dems needed labour to get a few more seats at the Election, and then form a coalition with them. Much more natural bedfellows. Now that would have been a coalition I could and would have supported.

This is/was the nightmare scenario for the Lib Dems. In "power", but with little power to do anything they really wanted, other than prop up an increasingly unpopular Tory Govt. They're stuck betweeen a rock and a hard place.