Jon Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 I think their raison d'etre is indeed Conservation. They stand for conserving the 'status quo', for conserving their (and their friends/allies etc) position at the top of the 'tree'. But yes, they also stand for the things above too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Conservatism is a political ideology. I'm also with Jon that it's still a valid description. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 I'm conservative and I don't stand for any of those things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 5, 2014 Author Moderator Share Posted November 5, 2014 I'm conservative and I don't stand for any of those things.I'm curious as you describe yourself thus. What do you stand for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 I'm conservative and I don't stand for any of those things. I'm curious as you describe yourself thus. What do you stand for? Liberty, equality of opportunity, low/minimal taxes, small government, free trade, rule of law - things like that. I expect our interpretations of many of those things and of conservatism in general differ wildly though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villaajax Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 With those values you've gone for the Tories? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 With those values you've gone for the Tories? I should point out that when I said I'm conservative I deliberately didn't capitalise it becuase I was talking about the ideology, not the party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 With those values you've gone for the Tories? Why, who would you suggest fits those values better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Conservatism in its traditional sense has been dead as an electoral force in the West for quite some time. Although some would not like to admit it, the UK is quite progressive socially although a little slower to accept change than most. Economically it shifts a little more although a true left-wing alternative to neo-liberalism doesn't exist, so the UK has pretty much been right-wing economically for quite some time. If you are a true conservative in this day and age, then you have to be a racist, sexist, homophobic arsehole (which, really, means you have to be a hardline religious sort). Of course there are decent amount of the electorate in Western countries that are all those things, and in some countries the numbers are growing, but you'll always have those people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Conservatism in its traditional sense has been dead as an electoral force in the West for quite some time. Although some would not like to admit it, the UK is quite progressive socially although a little slower to accept change than most. Economically it shifts a little more although a true left-wing alternative to neo-liberalism doesn't exist, so the UK has pretty much been right-wing economically for quite some time. If you are a true conservative in this day and age, then you have to be a racist, sexist, homophobic arsehole (which, really, means you have to be a hardline religious sort). Of course there are decent amount of the electorate in Western countries that are all those things, and in some countries the numbers are growing, but you'll always have those people. I think your definition of "true" conservatism is way off the mark. We're veering into no true Scotsman territory here. Furthermore, you don't have to be religious to be racist, sexist or homophobic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Certainly its debatable but tbh I don't care. I treat anyone who describes themselves as socially conservative with suspicion and contempt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villaajax Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 With those values you've gone for the Tories? Why, who would you suggest fits those values better? Liberty - I think all parties offer this. I don't think a party offering oppression would get many votes to be quite honest, it's just not a popular idea. Equality of opportunity - No party has done more for equality than Labour. Low / Minimal taxes - Income taxes have been lowered for some, yes, including the very highest earners and corporations, at the same time new taxes are created to make up for it, not to mention the increase in VAT which added up probably out weighs the small tax cut for the lowest earners. Small government - Not quite sure what you mean by this? Small as in nobody takes any notices? Easily slapped down by Angela Merkel? That kind of thing? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Certainly its debatable but tbh I don't care. I treat anyone who describes themselves as socially conservative with suspicion and contempt. That's probably because your definition of socially conservative differs wildly from most people who would call themselves that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Then what is your definition of being socially conservative? Maybe give some examples of policies you would support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted November 5, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted November 5, 2014 (edited) With those values you've gone for the Tories? Why, who would you suggest fits those values better? Liberty - I think all parties offer this. I don't think a party offering oppression would get many votes to be quite honest, it's just not a popular idea. Equality of opportunity - No party has done more for equality than Labour. Low / Minimal taxes - Income taxes have been lowered for some, yes, including the very highest earners and corporations, at the same time new taxes are created to make up for it, not to mention the increase in VAT which added up probably out weighs the small tax cut for the lowest earners. Small government - Not quite sure what you mean by this? Small as in nobody takes any notices? Easily slapped down by Angela Merkel? That kind of thing? Small government is as it sounds, really. It's a combination of fewer, smaller departments in government, and a general desire to reduce bureaucracy through having less politicians and policies. 'Big Government' would be a government that expands into all areas of day to day life and legislates all areas of everything, small government is one that reduces itself to 'vital' areas of governance. It's more of an American idea, these days, and become associated with general 'anything to do with governance is suspicious' mindset. It's a typical link to conservatism as, in general, big government means more people to do more stuff required, meaning more tax to pay for it, and generally assumes more meddling in peoples affairs which can be/is an attack on liberty. Edited November 5, 2014 by Chindie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 With those values you've gone for the Tories? Does labour or Lib Dems stand for those values? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villaajax Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 With those values you've gone for the Tories? Does labour or Lib Dems stand for those values? Stands for more of them than the Tories do. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meregreen Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 (edited) Small Government is a euphemism for Your on your own mate I've got mine and aim to keep it.Can't be having any of these pesky Govt run schemes to help those in need, it might cost me money. Edited November 5, 2014 by meregreen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villaajax Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Ah yes, the Tories are great at cutting bureaucracy. Look at the fine number they've done on the NHS for instance. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 5, 2014 Author Moderator Share Posted November 5, 2014 Without going into the whole thang, the Liberty one always cracks me up. Not come across a government in my nearly fifty years on the planet that has done anything but restrict liberty. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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