What's holding back American "soccer"?

[HanoiVillan]

4 hours ago, rodders0223 said:

They were all rich kids with parents paying thousands for them to be coached and play weren't they?

 

Probably at least some of them were. As I understand it 'pay to play' is a real problem. 

[OutByEaster?]

I guess its simply that other sports take priority, I'd imagine at school in the US if you're a decent midfielder but also a decent quarterback or point guard, you end up in the sport that the school and your dad care most about, not the smaller one - and I guess when you grow up watching Mahomes and Lebron James with your family, that's where your dreams go. 

In terms of infrastructure, the US is brilliant, sport is at the heart of a load of really well funded institutions which is why the US punches so much above its weight in football terms, those that have the capacity can find coaching, teams and structures where they can develop it.

If you compare that to another sporting nation in India,  with three times the population and a different sport as its national pastime for example, the difference between the two nations footballing abilities is stark - both nations might be obsessed with other sports, but in the US even smaller sports are so well funded and structured that the best players still have a chance to play at a decent level.

I think there's an argument to be made about how good the US is at propping up American soccer with the way it treats sport as a society rather than holding it back - you're overachieving.

[ThunderPower_14]

It's the 5th biggest professional sports league in the US. It's miles behind American Football, Basketball and Baseball and a little bit behind Ice Hockey.

We have the same issue in Australia where football is miles behind Australian Football, Rugby League and Cricket, although i'd argue that it's overtaken Rugby Union in the last 2 decades.

13 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

In terms of infrastructure, the US is brilliant, sport is at the heart of a load of really well funded institutions which is why the US punches so much above its weight in football terms, those that have the capacity can find coaching, teams and structures where they can develop it.

Agree fully with this. The High School and College sports systems are incredible and provide elite development pathways for so many more kids than other countries.

[VillaChris]

I'm not sure what is the question though. Are US producing top class players currently or in last five years, I'd say compared to Mexico it is. Mexico is Football mad country with huge population and resources yet their talent pool has run dry in last decade.

Aussie guy above aswell. Both US and Australia been on similar paths in last 30 years. Football/Soccer a minority sport in both countries in the 90s, had issues getting up a domestic league up and running but established now and both countries are pretty sure of making World cups now. The current Aussie squad however is woeful in terms of top level talent and we know from europe these things go in cycles regardless of infrastructure sometimes.

If people are just demanding they produce a Messi/Mbappe elite world star like in other sports I think that's a big ask but they still have a good core of players in CL for Italian teams for instance which is better than a decade ago.

Will the next World cup bring US to a standstill. No but they'll be certainly more awareness and engagement from locals with the tournament compared to 1994 so in 30 years that is decent enough progress and US should get further this time.

[Nor-Cal Villan]

15 hours ago, FLVillan said:

I could (and almost did) write a book about this subject.  Here's a bullet point list of what is holding things back here in the US:

• Too many "major sports" exist with longer/deeper histories.  No real local rivalries.  The distance from New York to Boston is same as London to Newcastle and these are the two closest rivalry cities in the US.  Take a city like New York - two teams.  Compare it to London - more than 10.  Another 40+ professional clubs within 200 miles.  In the US you would have to encompass the entire country (3500 miles) to come up with that number. 
• (see above) Shortage of truly elite young athletes who want to play the sport when they can aspire to the millions on offer in the NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL. Peer/parental pressure also plays a huge role.  "Soccer" is still viewed as "soft" and unfashionable and at 16/17 years old, given the choice, most will choose something else.
• No street/park games - everything is "organized" and expensive.  Nobody developing any natural talent/instincts.  No real role models at the professional level either.
• Youth soccer at the elite level is LUDICROUSLY expensive.  We're talking $4-5k per year just to play, then insane amounts of expensive travel in order to play against other "elite" youth teams.  Too many greedy people at the highest levels of the game here.  Zlatan alluded to it when he was in LA.  Kids at the "elite" clubs are often given the choice between their club or their school team and many will understandably choose to stay with their friends and be "coached" by whichever teacher at the school has the most influence.  
• Youth coaching is, for the most part, very poor.  
• The sport is a middle/upper class sport here (see above).  Working class kids are playing basketball in city playgrounds
• College "system" (drafted players) will rarely produce a top professional.  College graduation is at 21/22 years old.  Most top pros are breaking in at 18/19/20 across the rest of the world.  The best players in the US are missing years of development.
• In-stadium atmosphere, even at some great venues is horrible for watching.  Americans are conditioned to watching sports with loads of breaks, food and beer vendors walking up and down, music being played during the game.  I've been to many MLS matches here.  It's flat (atmosphere) and annoying (people constantly getting up and down for food/beer/souvenirs).  There is no banter, no real rivalry.
• General apathy from the public and the media.  Major sponsorships are focused on "major sports leagues" and even college football and basketball.  Good friend of mine gets more in royalties from Nike each year from the football team at his college than he does in salary as a head soccer coach in the ACC (the elite college league in the US). 

Which ACC school? Go Heels!!!

[VillaJ100]

6 hours ago, ThunderPower_14 said:

It's the 5th biggest professional sports league in the US. It's miles behind American Football, Basketball and Baseball and a little bit behind Ice Hockey.

We have the same issue in Australia where football is miles behind Australian Football, Rugby League and Cricket, although i'd argue that it's overtaken Rugby Union in the last 2 decades.

Agree fully with this. The High School and College sports systems are incredible and provide elite development pathways for so many more kids than other countries.

Why do Aussies love league so much? Is it because they're basically unbeatable at it?

[MapleVilla]

15 hours ago, FLVillan said:

I could (and almost did) write a book about this subject.  Here's a bullet point list of what is holding things back here in the US:

• Too many "major sports" exist with longer/deeper histories.  No real local rivalries.  The distance from New York to Boston is same as London to Newcastle and these are the two closest rivalry cities in the US.  Take a city like New York - two teams.  Compare it to London - more than 10.  Another 40+ professional clubs within 200 miles.  In the US you would have to encompass the entire country (3500 miles) to come up with that number. 
• (see above) Shortage of truly elite young athletes who want to play the sport when they can aspire to the millions on offer in the NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL. Peer/parental pressure also plays a huge role.  "Soccer" is still viewed as "soft" and unfashionable and at 16/17 years old, given the choice, most will choose something else.
• No street/park games - everything is "organized" and expensive.  Nobody developing any natural talent/instincts.  No real role models at the professional level either.
• Youth soccer at the elite level is LUDICROUSLY expensive.  We're talking $4-5k per year just to play, then insane amounts of expensive travel in order to play against other "elite" youth teams.  Too many greedy people at the highest levels of the game here.  Zlatan alluded to it when he was in LA.  Kids at the "elite" clubs are often given the choice between their club or their school team and many will understandably choose to stay with their friends and be "coached" by whichever teacher at the school has the most influence.  
• Youth coaching is, for the most part, very poor.  
• The sport is a middle/upper class sport here (see above).  Working class kids are playing basketball in city playgrounds
• College "system" (drafted players) will rarely produce a top professional.  College graduation is at 21/22 years old.  Most top pros are breaking in at 18/19/20 across the rest of the world.  The best players in the US are missing years of development.
• In-stadium atmosphere, even at some great venues is horrible for watching.  Americans are conditioned to watching sports with loads of breaks, food and beer vendors walking up and down, music being played during the game.  I've been to many MLS matches here.  It's flat (atmosphere) and annoying (people constantly getting up and down for food/beer/souvenirs).  There is no banter, no real rivalry.
• General apathy from the public and the media.  Major sponsorships are focused on "major sports leagues" and even college football and basketball.  Good friend of mine gets more in royalties from Nike each year from the football team at his college than he does in salary as a head soccer coach in the ACC (the elite college league in the US). 

This sums it up pretty well. Similar here in Canada though they seem to have the foundations in place to make it grow. Canadian Premier League is building each year. 

The pitches here are awful, and last year my co-ed league, one of the pitches, the sideline is super wonky. Like legit the painter was drunk or something. The ref's clearly don't watch the game and give riduculous calls and then you have the kids setup where some parents go ape shit over stupid decisions, and the games get called off. 

[icouldtelltheworld]

23 hours ago, Xela said:

It is not the national sport of the USA, thats why. 

 

 

Yep, 100% this. Same reason Ireland will never be a football powerhouse - when there's another 2/3 sports ahead in terms of popularity, there's a limit to what can be achieved.

Might as well have ended the thread after this comment tbh

[villa4europe]

7 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

Probably at least some of them were. As I understand it 'pay to play' is a real problem. 

How is that a thing though? Arguably football is the most popular and played sport in the world because it's accessible for everyone, you just need space and a ball, that's it, from your front room, your garden, the street, the park, the green outside your local shops, your school playground, the beach...everywhere is a football pitch, you need a ball and two things to make a goal out of, jumpers for goalposts and all that, even making the keeper take his shoes off and using them as posts, the balls we used to play with (KW) were the £1 garage flyaway balls - you need less than basketball!

How can they be making it something that's only played via paying to part of a club?

That's not what football at its core is all about 

[AndyClarke]

Baseball, NFL and Basketball.

[Hornso]

5 hours ago, VillaJ100 said:

Why do Aussies love league so much? Is it because they're basically unbeatable at it?

Firstly, Rugby is loved in New South Wales, Queensland & the ACT, whilst Australian football is dominant in Victoria, Tasmania, South Australia, Western Australia & the NT, so when you say Aussies it's basically 50% of the country. Of course the various leagues are trying to establish support in "enemy territory". The AFL has two popular teams in NSW & QLD and is trying to grow 2 more, whilst League has a successful team in the Storm in Melbourne.

I actually listened to a pod about this the other day and it sounds like it came down to money. League was developed (I think in England) to be a more spectator friendly version of Rugby. Union tried to close ranks and ban anyone who swapped codes but players were frustrated as the organisation body wasn't sharing the wealth of gate receipts and wanted the sport to remain amateur. League took rep sides across the world and started touring the UK and raking in big gate receipts and lured players across to their code with money. Since then the disparity has grown.

Union definitely had a moment here in the 90s and the World Cup in 2003, but as @ThunderPower_14 said, in terms of popularity and participation I'd say Union is behind AFL, League, Cricket, Soccer & Basketball at least over here, maybe more.

[TheGeneral]

Popularity compared to football and basketball, coaching, and the system at youth levels are probably the biggest problems

[Pinebro]

It's expensive 

Long travels 

Also missing out on the biggest club competition. Champions League 

[stewiek2]

You could say that, in a way, what is happening at Inter Miami is stifling. Sure, they've signed high name players such as Messi, Suarez, Busquets. But what has to done in terms of enticing players to other clubs? Same really when Henry etc went to NYC. Other big name player coming across just want to sign for that club, it's not spread out regards the incoming "star".

Edited 17 hours ago by stewiek2

[ThunderPower_14]

15 hours ago, VillaJ100 said:

Why do Aussies love league so much? Is it because they're basically unbeatable at it?

I think it's basically twofold as to why League has absolutely destroyed Union over here.

1) Having a mostly Australian based league, and certainly the money that was injected around the SuperLeague era. The Super 15s/Super Rugby Union was a good competition but getting smashed by NZ sides every year didn't really engender a lot of interest. Having a full national league meant there was just more to talk about for an Australian audience, so the papers covered it more, there were dedicated weekly TV variety type shows covering it etc.

2) The almost mythical status that State of Origin has attained. It's basically the biggest event in Australia every year. I live in an Aussie Rules state and at Origin time, you've still got every man and his dog talking about it. Marketing genius.

Union did a lot of stuff wrong. Firstly, IMO they needed a proper national league that didn't involve other countries. They also needed to still allow players to play for the Wallabies if they went to play overseas. It's also a very private school sport. League definitely caught on a lot more in the non-rugby states, where as Union seems sort of impenetrable. It was 50/50 20 years ago, but League has just streaked ahead.

[CarryOnVilla]

Same reason why we don’t really appreciate and resonate with their sports. 
 

there’s no history, culture or media interest in it. Our love for football is based upon 150+ years of history, family and community interest. Non of that exists for Americans. It may take just as long to build up. If it can in this hyper connected world. 

[mjmooney]

1 minute ago, CarryOnVilla said:

Same reason why we don’t really appreciate and resonate with their sports. 

Exactly this. You may as well ask "What's holding back British gridiron"? 

[DaveAV1]

On 20/10/2024 at 19:54, Xela said:

It is not the national sport of the USA, thats why. 

 

 

Smaller than NFL and ice hockey I believe and so that’s where the interest and therefore cash goes. Anything else is almost viewed as being anti American goddam it! Sorry to our US friends, just my view as an outsider and quite possibly wrong. UTV!!!!! 

[VillaJ100]

1 hour ago, CarryOnVilla said:

Same reason why we don’t really appreciate and resonate with their sports. 
 

there’s no history, culture or media interest in it. Our love for football is based upon 150+ years of history, family and community interest. Non of that exists for Americans. It may take just as long to build up. If it can in this hyper connected world. 

There seems to be more coverage of US Sports in our sports pages in the last 10 years though, particularly with American Football and Basketball 

[villa4europe]

1 hour ago, mjmooney said:

Exactly this. You may as well ask "What's holding back British gridiron"? 

the sport is massively growing here though and again its the opposite of what football is for me, you cant just go play NFL on UK streets, you cant even organise it and do it at schools as the set up costs would be too great

that's what's interesting about the other comments with regards to the costs of playing soccer in the states, its completely ass about tit, kids cant afford to play football but can play ice hockey?! 

something says to me that there is a big problem in the states differentiating between football as a sport and football as a game, for kids everywhere else in the world football starts as a game, because of the culture in the states I'm not sure if any of their sports are played as a game, forget kids for a minute but other than basketball it doesnt seem like any of the big 4 sports over there are played as a hobbie, how many 30 year old men meet up once a week to play american football? compare that to how many play football in the uk, what is the american sport equivalent of a work 5 a side kick about down their leisure centre? im ignorant to it but i've never seen anything to suggest it exists