What's holding back American "soccer"?

[Marka Ragnos]

My brother is an American youth soccer coach, and we were debating this last week. I remember when we went to a Villa match in 1974 and fell in love with the game. We both starting playing in Handsworth in a garden over a few weeks and brought football back to our neighborhood in the States, when it was still a pretty obscure pastime here in the midwest. It felt like discovering fire. We couldn't believe how fun it was, but no one we knew played it. My brother since that time has tried to spread the gospel and volunteers countless hours youth coaching, etc.

I honestly don't understand why American men's soccer still seems to lag so far behind its top European and Latin American football competitors. There's even an argument that's it got worse lately. I'm not saying that the fortunes of USMNT and American soccer in general are the same, but surely the comparably poor quality of the US Men's National Team is somewhat connected. My brother thinks it's the lack of volunteerism and complicated high school/college eligibility rules. I tend to think it's other sports with deep-pockets that take more leisure-spending money and keep soccer small. While there's tons of youth soccer leagues, I rarely see pickup games except among immigrants. I wonder if that's a clue. I have probably made some errors and assumptions here,  but I'm truly interested in what people think about this. I find it bewildering and sad. I feel like I've seen so much money and attention ploughed into soccer, and still, the best we've got are (no disrespect meant) Christian Pulusic and Weston McKennie??? 

Quote

 

Disastrous summer for the USMNT and US Olympics MNT leaves US soccer with work to do before the World Cup

This should’ve been the second phase. After the successful acquisition of Lionel Messi last summer, Major League Soccer signalled its intent to accelerate the development of soccer in the USA, improving the standard of a league that would provide a springboard for the US Men’s National Team to develop ahead of the 2026 World Cup that it will be hosting, alongside Canada and Mexico.

And yet, here we are in a summer in which both the USMNT and the US Olympic squad have exited major international tournaments with a whimper. The USMNT, hosting the 2024 Copa America, crashed out at the group stage following terminal defeats to Marcelo Bielsa’s Uruguay and old enemies Panama, who qualified for the 2018 World Cup at the expense of a beleaguered US team back in October 2017.

 

 

 

 

Edited Sunday at 18:59 by Marka Ragnos

[Xela]

It is not the national sport of the USA, thats why. 

 

 

[MrBlack]

NFL doesn't suffer from pathetic diving and massively debatable calls every single match, or refs that get bombarded with abuse and surrounded.  If I'd grown up watching NFL with its regular breaks to grab a beer, and the respect shown to the game and referees, I doubt I'd give football the time of day either.

Diving, time wasting, random extra time and dodgy decisions favouring the scum clubs that make the product (yeah, the Chiefs get some dodgy calls go their way more often than most, but nothing like what The scum6 usually get), and general incompetence of the rule makers.... its a miracle I still even follow it myself.

[grantholtgolazo]

there’s complicated reasons but there’s also one large simple one: mls soccer only pays a tiny fraction of what athletes earn in the nfl/nba/nfl/nhl. 

[bcarpet]

I think the bit about what you call pick up games is the key part. In England as you say kids are playing in gardens, small streets with a crap surface, little patches of ground not suitable to even be described as potato fields, in Brazil you have kids playing on beaches and every street.  It the constantly playing from the moment you can stand and developing your touch and intuition on varied unpredictable surfaces that really develop a player I think.  Yes they also now have these pristine academy pitches, but these lads will still be playing with their mates too even if it's not with their local Sunday league side

[sne]

14 minutes ago, MrBlack said:

NFL doesn't suffer from pathetic diving and massively debatable calls every single match, or refs that get bombarded with abuse and surrounded.  If I'd grown up watching NFL with its regular breaks to grab a beer, and the respect shown to the game and referees, I doubt I'd give football the time of day either.

Diving, time wasting, random extra time and dodgy decisions favouring the scum clubs that make the product (yeah, the Chiefs get some dodgy calls go their way more often than most, but nothing like what The scum6 usually get), and general incompetence of the rule makers.... its a miracle I still even follow it myself.

NBA basketball has all that and that's still somewhat popular in the US

[S-Platt]

Do they play it a college level is there a draft system like the other sports? 

[villa4europe]

28 minutes ago, MrBlack said:

NFL doesn't suffer from pathetic diving and massively debatable calls every single match, or refs that get bombarded with abuse and surrounded.  If I'd grown up watching NFL with its regular breaks to grab a beer, and the respect shown to the game and referees, I doubt I'd give football the time of day either.

Diving, time wasting, random extra time and dodgy decisions favouring the scum clubs that make the product (yeah, the Chiefs get some dodgy calls go their way more often than most, but nothing like what The scum6 usually get), and general incompetence of the rule makers.... its a miracle I still even follow it myself.

Not just the NFL, it's all the yank sports

But the premier league is seemingly successful there so it can't be the only reason

Personally I thought they were going to scout South America and snap up a load of the talent, our Duran went there obviously, Atlanta have taken a few good players, I think that the way the MLS grows is that it becomes a stepping stone to European football, they should be hoovering up all the young talent they can find and then with 2-3 years shipping them here

They still seem a league that holds themselves back with the traditional American squad building systems and league structures, makes them a retirement home

While at the same time they don't seem capable of developing a top national team either so they're getting something wrong at youth level too

17 minutes ago, bcarpet said:

I think the bit about what you call pick up games is the key part. In England as you say kids are playing in gardens, small streets with a crap surface, little patches of ground not suitable to even be described as potato fields, in Brazil you have kids playing on beaches and every street.  It the constantly playing from the moment you can stand and developing your touch and intuition on varied unpredictable surfaces that really develop a player I think.  Yes they also now have these pristine academy pitches, but these lads will still be playing with their mates too even if it's not with their local Sunday league side

Saw something of Facebook on this over the weekend, a map of every football pitch in Europe and loads of comments about his being the difference between Europe and the US and my first thought was when I was a kid absolutely anywhere was a football pitch, it's not a sports club orientated planned activity type thing it's kids getting balls from under cars as they play in the street, I didn't play on proper pitches, I kicked a ball against a shop wall trying to hit the no ball games sign - but that's not something you see that much of anymore in the UK 

[PaulC]

Because they call it soccer 

[HanoiVillan]

This is just one experience or set of stories, don't read too much into it, but:

I went to our game away at City last season with a coachload of teenage American soccer players and their families. My colleague's brother works in academy football in New Mexico, and this was through him. On the coach I heard about the games the kids had played while over here in England, and frankly it all sounded like it had gone very well. They'd been beaten by a team in Liverpool, but those kids were a year older and playing for a satellite team of Liverpool's academy. They'd had another game in Sheffield against a less-organised side who had assumed they would beat these American kids without even trying, and the Americans had won easily; just by playing with a structure and formation the Sheffield kids were flummoxed. 

It was clear from talking to these young players they all took it super seriously, and clearly some of them were very good (one had recently been on a youth trial at Barcelona, for instance). It left me with the sense that it's either going to change in the next generation or so, or else that the problem isn't generating loads of technically gifted kids, but maybe a pipeline problem in terms of getting the right amount of experience and chances for the very very best of them. 

[grantholtgolazo]

1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said:

This is just one experience or set of stories, don't read too much into it, but:

I went to our game away at City last season with a coachload of teenage American soccer players and their families. My colleague's brother works in academy football in New Mexico, and this was through him. On the coach I heard about the games the kids had played while over here in England, and frankly it all sounded like it had gone very well. They'd been beaten by a team in Liverpool, but those kids were a year older and playing for a satellite team of Liverpool's academy. They'd had another game in Sheffield against a less-organised side who had assumed they would beat these American kids without even trying, and the Americans had won easily; just by playing with a structure and formation the Sheffield kids were flummoxed. 

It was clear from talking to these young players they all took it super seriously, and clearly some of them were very good (one had recently been on a youth trial at Barcelona, for instance). It left me with the sense that it's either going to change in the next generation or so, or else that the problem isn't generating loads of technically gifted kids, but maybe a pipeline problem in terms of getting the right amount of experience and chances for the very very best of them. 

I grew up playing in the US, played at decent level through high school and college. I think what happens frequently is even the most talented players end up focusing on other sports or going into professional fields (lawyer, finance, etc.) Despite the growth in soccer it’s not viewed as seriously as a professional choice here, I think that changes gradually as a cumulative effect, but the financial side has to become an incentive. The average American doesn’t like the idea of having to go abroad to participate in the highest levels of their chosen profession.

[VillaChris]

Currently the US have a decent core of young to mid 20 players:

Antonee Robinson- Established himself as a competent mid table prem LB with potential to go higher.

Chris Richards- Very highly rated, just been injured too much and played in DM at Palace.

Musah- Still only 21 and played 30 times for AC Milan last year.

McKennie- Terrible in the prem but Juventus keep playing him.

Johnny Cardoso- Making an impact at Betis, probably someone we'll see in the prem sooner or later.

Gio Reyna- Still at Dortmund and also still somehow 21. Hardly played at Forest but I think he's someone who'll come good under Poch.

Pulisic- Injuries stopped him reaching his potential but he's still shown good periods of form for Chelsea and AC Milan. Will still only be 27 when the World Cup happens so that feels his moment to really impact on the main stage.

Ricardo Pepi- Very good scoring record so far in Holland. Whether that will translate to major league I'm not sure, 1 in 3 for US currently.

Timothy Weah- Already played for PSG, Celtic and Juventus in his career.

Floarin Balogun- One they pinched from England but doing fine for Monaco and we'll be facing him in the CL early next year.

Likes of Tyler Adams and Segino Dest dropped off the radar in recent years due to endless injuries.

Overall to me they just lack a decent keeper with Matt Turner flopping at club level and mediocre collection of CBs but there's enough midfielders and attackers there playing at top end euro clubs to get to QFs of next World cup given they'll be higher seeds than usual and they usually make the last 16 now.

It will never be the number one sport over there but judging by the big interest in the premier league now decent amounts of the population are at least aware of what "Soccer" is and its place in the World's psyche so they'll be more awareness of it than the 1994 event so that will inspire future generations if US exceed expectations. 

They've also had a problem in recent times of appointing mediocre MLS managers constantly. Could've gone further in 2010 but Bob Bradley was limited tactically. Bruce Arena failed to get them to 2018 World cup and then under Berhalter they had loads of off the field issues, last 16 at last World cup was par and then disaster at Copa America so up to Poch to overachieve a bit now.

[VillaChris]

32 minutes ago, grantholtgolazo said:

I grew up playing in the US, played at decent level through high school and college. I think what happens frequently is even the most talented players end up focusing on other sports or going into professional fields (lawyer, finance, etc.) Despite the growth in soccer it’s not viewed as seriously as a professional choice here, I think that changes gradually as a cumulative effect, but the financial side has to become an incentive. The average American doesn’t like the idea of having to go abroad to participate in the highest levels of their chosen profession.

Landon Donovan was a classic case. One of the best players US ever produced yet he didn't last long in Germany. Then came to Everton when he was about 28 and played well but didn't want to stay long term and was content to play majority of his career in MLS.

Michael Bradley flopped on loan here but then went on to play well in Italy. Only 27 when he left to return to MLS.

[Nor-Cal Villan]

5 hours ago, sne said:

NBA basketball has all that and that's still somewhat popular in the US

Yeah, just a bit popular

[Nor-Cal Villan]

5 hours ago, S-Platt said:

Do they play it a college level is there a draft system like the other sports? 

Yes. Yes

[Nor-Cal Villan]

4 hours ago, PaulC said:

Because they call it soccer 

I wonder where we got the word

[FLVillan]

I could (and almost did) write a book about this subject.  Here's a bullet point list of what is holding things back here in the US:

• Too many "major sports" exist with longer/deeper histories.  No real local rivalries.  The distance from New York to Boston is same as London to Newcastle and these are the two closest rivalry cities in the US.  Take a city like New York - two teams.  Compare it to London - more than 10.  Another 40+ professional clubs within 200 miles.  In the US you would have to encompass the entire country (3500 miles) to come up with that number. 
• (see above) Shortage of truly elite young athletes who want to play the sport when they can aspire to the millions on offer in the NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL. Peer/parental pressure also plays a huge role.  "Soccer" is still viewed as "soft" and unfashionable and at 16/17 years old, given the choice, most will choose something else.
• No street/park games - everything is "organized" and expensive.  Nobody developing any natural talent/instincts.  No real role models at the professional level either.
• Youth soccer at the elite level is LUDICROUSLY expensive.  We're talking $4-5k per year just to play, then insane amounts of expensive travel in order to play against other "elite" youth teams.  Too many greedy people at the highest levels of the game here.  Zlatan alluded to it when he was in LA.  Kids at the "elite" clubs are often given the choice between their club or their school team and many will understandably choose to stay with their friends and be "coached" by whichever teacher at the school has the most influence.  
• Youth coaching is, for the most part, very poor.  
• The sport is a middle/upper class sport here (see above).  Working class kids are playing basketball in city playgrounds
• College "system" (drafted players) will rarely produce a top professional.  College graduation is at 21/22 years old.  Most top pros are breaking in at 18/19/20 across the rest of the world.  The best players in the US are missing years of development.
• In-stadium atmosphere, even at some great venues is horrible for watching.  Americans are conditioned to watching sports with loads of breaks, food and beer vendors walking up and down, music being played during the game.  I've been to many MLS matches here.  It's flat (atmosphere) and annoying (people constantly getting up and down for food/beer/souvenirs).  There is no banter, no real rivalry.
• General apathy from the public and the media.  Major sponsorships are focused on "major sports leagues" and even college football and basketball.  Good friend of mine gets more in royalties from Nike each year from the football team at his college than he does in salary as a head soccer coach in the ACC (the elite college league in the US). 

[rodders0223]

9 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

This is just one experience or set of stories, don't read too much into it, but:

I went to our game away at City last season with a coachload of teenage American soccer players and their families. My colleague's brother works in academy football in New Mexico, and this was through him. On the coach I heard about the games the kids had played while over here in England, and frankly it all sounded like it had gone very well. They'd been beaten by a team in Liverpool, but those kids were a year older and playing for a satellite team of Liverpool's academy. They'd had another game in Sheffield against a less-organised side who had assumed they would beat these American kids without even trying, and the Americans had won easily; just by playing with a structure and formation the Sheffield kids were flummoxed. 

It was clear from talking to these young players they all took it super seriously, and clearly some of them were very good (one had recently been on a youth trial at Barcelona, for instance). It left me with the sense that it's either going to change in the next generation or so, or else that the problem isn't generating loads of technically gifted kids, but maybe a pipeline problem in terms of getting the right amount of experience and chances for the very very best of them. 

They were all rich kids with parents paying thousands for them to be coached and play weren't they?

 

[VillaJ100]

6 hours ago, FLVillan said:

I could (and almost did) write a book about this subject.  Here's a bullet point list of what is holding things back here in the US:

• Too many "major sports" exist with longer/deeper histories.  No real local rivalries.  The distance from New York to Boston is same as London to Newcastle and these are the two closest rivalry cities in the US.  Take a city like New York - two teams.  Compare it to London - more than 10.  Another 40+ professional clubs within 200 miles.  In the US you would have to encompass the entire country (3500 miles) to come up with that number. 
• (see above) Shortage of truly elite young athletes who want to play the sport when they can aspire to the millions on offer in the NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL. Peer/parental pressure also plays a huge role.  "Soccer" is still viewed as "soft" and unfashionable and at 16/17 years old, given the choice, most will choose something else.
• No street/park games - everything is "organized" and expensive.  Nobody developing any natural talent/instincts.  No real role models at the professional level either.
• Youth soccer at the elite level is LUDICROUSLY expensive.  We're talking $4-5k per year just to play, then insane amounts of expensive travel in order to play against other "elite" youth teams.  Too many greedy people at the highest levels of the game here.  Zlatan alluded to it when he was in LA.  Kids at the "elite" clubs are often given the choice between their club or their school team and many will understandably choose to stay with their friends and be "coached" by whichever teacher at the school has the most influence.  
• Youth coaching is, for the most part, very poor.  
• The sport is a middle/upper class sport here (see above).  Working class kids are playing basketball in city playgrounds
• College "system" (drafted players) will rarely produce a top professional.  College graduation is at 21/22 years old.  Most top pros are breaking in at 18/19/20 across the rest of the world.  The best players in the US are missing years of development.
• In-stadium atmosphere, even at some great venues is horrible for watching.  Americans are conditioned to watching sports with loads of breaks, food and beer vendors walking up and down, music being played during the game.  I've been to many MLS matches here.  It's flat (atmosphere) and annoying (people constantly getting up and down for food/beer/souvenirs).  There is no banter, no real rivalry.
• General apathy from the public and the media.  Major sponsorships are focused on "major sports leagues" and even college football and basketball.  Good friend of mine gets more in royalties from Nike each year from the football team at his college than he does in salary as a head soccer coach in the ACC (the elite college league in the US). 

Great points. It's largely seen as a women's/little kids sport, and when you're old enough to start playing 'American' sports you move on up. 

Kind of disagree about baseball? That's been slowly dying for years, like saying kids are playing cricket in the parks round here. I thought it was more basketball. 

Definitely agree about the coaching. A guy I know who was asked not to bother being an assistant to a Sunday league manager is now a coach at a US college.

[sne]

Gilbert Grape