Thomas Tuchel - England Manager

[LondonLax]

13 minutes ago, bobzy said:

He’s still English, though. 

Carsley pledged his footballing allegiance to Ireland. If you are looking at national requirements for coaching he would logically be restricted to coaching Ireland after finishing his playing career with Ireland. 

[Honest bunch of lads]

I think he is a likeably eccentric guy as a manager, with a good record in knock out competitions. I’m happy with this appointment. 

[HanoiVillan]

2 hours ago, bobzy said:

He’s still English, though. 

Yeah but that opens up a whole can of worms, are we now saying you can't be English if you weren't physically born on British soil?

[Herman22]

5 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Yeah but that opens up a whole can of worms, are we now saying you can't be English if you weren't physically born on British soil?

These arguments always fall apart when you scratch the surface a bit. 

So Sterling could never be English manager as he’s born in Jamaica. 

[HanoiVillan]

8 minutes ago, Herman22 said:

These arguments always fall apart when you scratch the surface a bit. 

So Sterling could never be English manager as he’s born in Jamaica. 

Exactly so, and he's far from the only one, even in recent years (Owen Hargreaves and Fikayo Tomori were both born in Calgary, Marc Guehi was born in Abidjan, etc). 

[Stevo985]

Nationality and footballing nationality are two totally different things

[HanoiVillan]

42 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Nationality and footballing nationality are two totally different things

Right, and that's one way to make Lineker's argument make sense, but I didn't find Lineker's actual argument very clear and I basically think he just forgot that Lee Carsley considers himself Irish for football purposes before he suggested keeping him would have been the right decision. 

As I see it, there's two ways to synthesise 'we should have appointed an Englishman . . . we should have appointed Lee Carsley*', and it's useful for people to be clear about which they are choosing:

One is to say 'well, these opinions aren't really connected: I just mean that it's sad that no English manager is good enough, I'm not saying the FA shouldn't have appointed someone who isn't English, but having acknowledged that they felt they needed to, I wish they'd chosen a 'project' manager like Carsley rather than an expensive appointment like Tuchel', and just make the discussion about footballing reasons between Carsley and Tuchel rather than claiming Carsley is English for footballing purposes. 

The other is to say 'both Raheem Sterling and Lee Carsley are English in the way I want because I'm only interested in the person's passport, not where they were born or where they have chosen to represent'. And that's fine, but if people are making that argument then I think they need to internalise three points: a) they're putting all the weight on a government document, not on issues like 'identity'; b) logically, they would have to be fine with Tuchel on this basis if he gets himself dual citizenship (ie, they couldn't consider him *really German*); and c) it's important to be really very clear that the passport is the issue not the place of birth because 'John Barnes isn't really English because he was born in Jamaica' is a real opinion that many people really held within living memory, but which I think most of us, from the vantage point of 2024, would be quite embarrassed about, and unless you make it really clear it's the document you care about not the place of birth or the racial background of the person, many people will default to the latter. 

*I personally don't care about the sanctity of national anthems and think ours is a travesty both symbolically and musically, but it's kind of amusing nevertheless that Carsley is not just someone who chose to be Irish for footballing reasons, but specifically chose to ride out a media storm due to him rejecting this display of 'Englishness' in very recent times. 

Edited 19 hours ago by HanoiVillan

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

I'm very late to this party!

My two cents is, I've always felt it's weird when the Manager of a National Team, isn't from that country, especially for the major traditional footballing nations, like England, Brazil, Argentina, France, Netherlands etc.

I reckon I'd even feel weird as a Manager. What are the feelings when England play Germany in a final? ( Insert the Royal family are German here ). Are they able to genuinely feel the pure passion of representing their country?

Club Football is totally different OBS.

I'm not one to judge though, as we currently have SCHTEVE McLaren in charge of Jamaica.

I genuinely do feel you have AT LEAST 2 - 3 English managers who could do a good job with that squad.

Just strange imo.

Edited 19 hours ago by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[Herman22]

25 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

The other is to say 'both Raheem Sterling and Lee Carsley are English in the way I want because I'm only interested in the person's passport, not where they were born or where they have chosen to represent'.

Haven’t both Bellingham and Kane gone and gone Irish passport because of the rules in the German and Spanish leagues? 

Are they both then not allowed to be future England managers? 

[HanoiVillan]

1 minute ago, Herman22 said:

Haven’t both Bellingham and Kane gone and gone Irish passport because of the rules in the German and Spanish leagues? 

Are they both then not allowed to be future England managers? 

I honestly haven't read about that, that's interesting. But I suppose [this hypothetical person who is not me] would argue that it would only be disqualifying if they had *renounced* their UK citizenship, not if they'd got dual nationality. 

[villa4europe]

Not sure what those rules would be, they'd both just get working visas 

[Herman22]

36 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

I'm very late to this party!

My two cents is, I've always felt it's weird when the Manager of a National Team, isn't from that country, especially for the major traditional footballing nations, like England, Brazil, Argentina, France, Netherlands etc.

I really don’t get how you can say England is a major nation. Haven’t won anything in nearly 60 years. 

Clearly what’s been done in the past has been a failure so best try something else. 

[Zatman]

37 minutes ago, Herman22 said:

Haven’t both Bellingham and Kane gone and gone Irish passport because of the rules in the German and Spanish leagues? 

Are they both then not allowed to be future England managers? 

Conor Gallagher as well

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said:

Right, and that's one way to make Lineker's argument make sense, but I didn't find Lineker's actual argument very clear and I basically think he just forgot that Lee Carsley considers himself Irish for football purposes before he suggested keeping him would have been the right decision. 

As I see it, there's two ways to synthesise 'we should have appointed an Englishman . . . we should have appointed Lee Carsley*', and it's useful for people to be clear about which they are choosing:

One is to say 'well, these opinions aren't really connected: I just mean that it's sad that no English manager is good enough, I'm not saying the FA shouldn't have appointed someone who isn't English, but having acknowledged that they felt they needed to, I wish they'd chosen a 'project' manager like Carsley rather than an expensive appointment like Tuchel', and just make the discussion about footballing reasons between Carsley and Tuchel rather than claiming Carsley is English for footballing purposes. 

The other is to say 'both Raheem Sterling and Lee Carsley are English in the way I want because I'm only interested in the person's passport, not where they were born or where they have chosen to represent'. And that's fine, but if people are making that argument then I think they need to internalise three points: a) they're putting all the weight on a government document, not on issues like 'identity'; b) logically, they would have to be fine with Tuchel on this basis if he gets himself dual citizenship (ie, they couldn't consider him *really German*); and c) it's important to be really very clear that the passport is the issue not the place of birth because 'John Barnes isn't really English because he was born in Jamaica' is a real opinion that many people really held within living memory, but which I think most of us, from the vantage point of 2024, would be quite embarrassed about, and unless you make it really clear it's the document you care about not the place of birth or the racial background of the person, many people will default to the latter. 

*I personally don't care about the sanctity of national anthems and think ours is a travesty both symbolically and musically, but it's kind of amusing nevertheless that Carsley is not just someone who chose to be Irish for footballing reasons, but specifically chose to ride out a media storm due to him rejecting this display of 'Englishness' in very recent times. 

I don't disagree with any of this. I was just making the point that people often talk about nationality and footballing nationality as if they obey the same "rules". When they don't.

Footballing nationality is black and white (assuming you've played international football. You're the nationality of whatever country you declare(d) for. Ciaran Clark is Irish. Diego Costa is Spanish
Nationality in reality is far more complex. They'd be considered English and Brazilian (respectively) I'd assume

 

Some people try to apply footballing nationality to real life, and vice versa. It simply doesn't work

[KentVillan]

1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

I don't disagree with any of this. I was just making the point that people often talk about nationality and footballing nationality as if they obey the same "rules". When they don't.

Footballing nationality is black and white (assuming you've played international football. You're the nationality of whatever country you declare(d) for. Ciaran Clark is Irish. Diego Costa is Spanish
Nationality in reality is far more complex. They'd be considered English and Brazilian (respectively) I'd assume

 

Some people try to apply footballing nationality to real life, and vice versa. It simply doesn't work

It’s a bit simpler than that IMO.

You can have multiple nationalities in normal life based on your heritage and where you were born / have lived for a long period of time.

Football nationality is just selecting from one of those for your playing career as an adult.

Sterling is Jamaican and British / English.

Diego Costa is Brazilian and Spanish.

Lee Carsley, Jack Grealish and Declan Rice are British / English and Irish.

I don’t know why people get so funny about people having multiple allegiances. It’s a bit bigoted underneath it all isn’t it?

Edited 17 hours ago by KentVillan

[Stevo985]

25 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

It’s a bit simpler than that IMO.

You can have multiple nationalities in normal life based on your heritage and where you were born / have lived for a long period of time.

Football nationality is just selecting from one of those for your playing career as an adult.

 

But it's not, because you don't even have to have that nationalilty. Or have ever lived there.

If someone has an irish grandmother but has never been to ireland, never met that grandmother, and lived in australia their entire life, then they wouldn't be considered Irish. It might be in their heritage, but it's not a nationality of theirs.

But they could play for Ireland at football. And thus in football they would be Irish

 

 

Again this isn't a dig at the system, or some sort of protest about the fact that people can do that. It's merely pointing out that people who try to apply the "rules" of nationality between football and real life are conducting a pointless exercise.
It just doesn't work the same way

[Davkaus]

This tells a story doesn't it

 

[ml1dch]

21 hours ago, TDR V2 said:

(Southgate) achieved nothing, if achievement is winning something

But I don't think anyone would try and sensibly make that argument, would they?

Unless they are also prepared to argue that as things stand, Unai Emery has achieved nothing at Villa. 

[HanoiVillan]

By that standard, 99+% of all international managers have never achieved anything, which rather begs the question of why we don't just get the players to organise themselves if managers contribute nothing at all. 

[foreveryoung]

2 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

I don't disagree with any of this. I was just making the point that people often talk about nationality and footballing nationality as if they obey the same "rules". When they don't.

Footballing nationality is black and white (assuming you've played international football. You're the nationality of whatever country you declare(d) for. Ciaran Clark is Irish. Diego Costa is Spanish
Nationality in reality is far more complex. They'd be considered English and Brazilian (respectively) I'd assume

 

Some people try to apply footballing nationality to real life, and vice versa. It simply doesn't work

I shocked you actually take this view. I mean, surely someone could just identify as another nationality, and we would have to go with it.