Thomas Tuchel - England Manager

[Tomaszk]

4 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

I genuinely do feel you have AT LEAST 2 - 3 English managers who could do a good job with that squad.

Yes please. Can I have your four who can do a good job please.

There's not a single English manager with his credentials.

[TDR V2]

1 hour ago, ml1dch said:

But I don't think anyone would try and sensibly make that argument, would they?

Unless they are also prepared to argue that as things stand, Unai Emery has achieved nothing at Villa. 

Yet

[villarule123]

I think management rules should apply the same as the playing side, only managers that would have been eligible to play for their country should be able to manage them. At least for a country that isn't in a devoloping football nation, the top 50?

That's a separate conversation though. 

He's a brilliant choice for what's available, and it's pretty damning that no English coach can get anywhere near what he's achieved in the game. Something is going seriously wrong somewhere if we can't produce a top quality coach with the amount of funding our leagues get. 

I don't give a toss whether he's German either. 

[KentVillan]

2 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

But it's not, because you don't even have to have that nationalilty. Or have ever lived there.

If someone has an irish grandmother but has never been to ireland, never met that grandmother, and lived in australia their entire life, then they wouldn't be considered Irish. It might be in their heritage, but it's not a nationality of theirs.

But they could play for Ireland at football. And thus in football they would be Irish

 

 

Again this isn't a dig at the system, or some sort of protest about the fact that people can do that. It's merely pointing out that people who try to apply the "rules" of nationality between football and real life are conducting a pointless exercise.
It just doesn't work the same way

You’re confusing nationality and citizenship.

Nationality is not really a legal thing, it’s an inherited or acquired cultural / emotional / whatever tie to a place.

You can have Basque nationality or Welsh nationality. There are nations without states like the Kurds.

It’s quite convoluted, and that’s why sports necessarily run into issues too. Northern Ireland, the old East / West Germany, the former Yugoslavian states, etc.

Citizenship is about passports and nation-states. Sometimes it overlaps pretty neatly with nationality, but often it doesn’t.

British passport holders should be familiar with that.

so the point is there are no “rules” of nationality in real life.

Edited 13 hours ago by KentVillan

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

1 hour ago, Tomaszk said:

Yes please. Can I have your four who can do a good job please.

There's not a single English manager with his credentials.

Are the likes of Rob Edwards meant to be winning the Premier League and Champions League with Luton?

Most of them don't get the chance to be able to achieve said " credentials " in the first place.

[ml1dch]

1 hour ago, TDR V2 said:

Yet

Nope. 

If Emery were to leave us tomorrow, he will still have achieved more than "nothing" during his time at the club.

[Tomaszk]

31 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Are the likes of Rob Edwards meant to be winning the Premier League and Champions League with Luton?

Most of them don't get the chance to be able to achieve said " credentials " in the first place.

What on earth.

[Davkaus]

42 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Are the likes of Rob Edwards meant to be winning the Premier League and Champions League with Luton?

Most of them don't get the chance to be able to achieve said " credentials " in the first place.

To be fair, Tuchel didn't just walk into the PSG and Chelsea jobs, he put a decade in as a youth and reserves coach before getting a chance to manage Mainz.

Part of me thinks we've got a big problem with English coaches, why do we only have 2 in the Premier League, why has no Englishman won the top flight since 1992. They are the majority in the second tier though, they're just not making it at the top flight. Maybe that's a cost of us being one of the leagues most able to attract international talent, and maybe it's because English football isn't doing what it needs to do in order to develop managers in our own country.

I read yesterday that it's 7 times more expensive to gain your UEFA A license in England than it is in Germany - and over here for that 7 times more money, you get fewer hours training.

[mikeyp102]

6 hours ago, Herman22 said:

I really don’t get how you can say England is a major nation. Haven’t won anything in nearly 60 years. 

Clearly what’s been done in the past has been a failure so best try something else. 

England is clearly a major footballing nation. They would always be one of the teams other nations look out for. 

[KentVillan]

Just now, Davkaus said:

To be fair, Tuchel didn't just walk into the PSG and Chelsea jobs, he put a decade in as a youth and reserves coach before getting a chance to manage Mainz.

Part of me thinks we've got a big problem with English coaches, why do we only have 2 in the Premier League, why has no Englishman won the top flight since 1992. They are the majority in the second tier though, they're just not making it at the top flight. Maybe that's a cost of us being one of the leagues most able to attract international talent, and maybe it's because English football isn't doing what it needs to do in order to develop managers in our own country.

I read yesterday that it's 7 times more expensive to gain your UEFA A license in England than it is in Germany - and over here for that 7 times more money, you get fewer hours training.

Here are a few theories (I think all of them contribute to some extent):

1. More expensive to study and therefore fewer people training as coaches in the first place 

2. Old boys’ club - not accessible to players who haven’t played professionally

3. Football is still very class-coded in England in a way which is less true in Spain, Italy and Germany

4. Our coaches only speak English. Most elite coaches nowadays are fluent in several languages.

5. Although our game has become a lot more technical, it still tends to prioritise speed and athleticism more than other countries. That naturally means our game produces fewer “tactical midfielders” and “ballplaying defenders” who are often the best management material.

6. Until very recently, our youth system was too win-at-all-costs competitive, played 11-a-side too young, and so on, so again didn’t really develop technicians and tacticians. It aimed to produce Steven Gerrard / John Terry types - marauding units who stomped around the pitch taking names 

[colhint]

If you think about it there are 20 premiere league teams with 25 man squads. That's 500 players. How many English in the top 7 (European places) 

There ain't that many. Why should we go for a manager who's English when the club's dont.

 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

50 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

What on earth.

It's really not that complicated or " what on earthy " as you are trying to exclaim lol.

My point is quite clearly that I don't feel most English Managers have the opportunity to get to the top level in the first place.

The Premier League will always, like you in this scenario, just want the shiniest decorated foreign object.

International Football isn't like Club Football, most the top teams already have great players, I'm pretty sure there are decent progressive English Managers who could organise the National Team.

Not sure why you are trying to make it seem so outlandish.

In the same vein how many people would say Pep is a better Manager than Unai, but Pep probably couldn't do what Unai has, or other Managers have with lesser teams.

Managers like Pep have pretty much had a streamlined golden ticket to the top ( And that's not to take away from him either )

For all you know there could be a Manager in th Nationwide who could win the treble with Man City 3 years in a row, with the right pathway,but we'll never know.

Just because someone like Eddie Howe or Graham Potter doesn't sound exciting based on profile and club accolades, doesn't mean they wouldn't have the capability to be a success with England, as there are many variables in Club Football. Not so much with International Football.

The same principle can be applied across the board, even with athletes 

I'm not sure what's so " confusing " to you.

Edited 12 hours ago by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

6 minutes ago, colhint said:

There ain't that many. Why should we go for a manager who's English when the club's dont.

Because Club Football and International Football is totally different?

The most obvious point being, the players are from and representing the country? ( The semantics of where the players roots are from is a different thing altogether )

[Tomaszk]

3 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

It's really not that complicated or " what on earthy " as you are trying to exclaim lol.

My point is quite clearly that I don't feel most English Managers have the opportunity to get to the top level in the first place.

You can think that if you want.

I think they get the chance if they're good enough. They do well and get better jobs...then again...then again.

I also think they get given chances they shouldn't because they're English. This is a much bigger problem.

We had Steven Gerrard as manager two years ago. Gareth Southgate was England manager for eight years. Neither deserved a chance or was any good.

3 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

The Premier League will always, like you in this scenario, just want the shiniest decorated foreign object.

The FA runs the England team, not the PL.

I didn't mention wanting Tuchel. I said it's a very exciting appointment which it is.

3 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

International Football isn't like Club Football, most the top teams already have great players, I'm pretty sure there are decent progressive English Managers who could organise the National Team.

Not sure why you are trying to make it seem so outlandish.

In the same vein how many people would say Pep is a better Manager than Unai, but Pep probably couldn't do what Unai has, or other Managers have with lesser teams.

Managers like Pep have pretty much had a streamlined golden ticket to the top ( And that's not to take away from him either )

For all you know there could be a Manager in th Nationwide who could win the treble with Man City 3 years in a row, with the right pathway,but we'll never know.

The same principle can be applied across the board, even with athletes 

I'm not sure what's so " confusing " to you.

I don't have a clue what you're talking about. You're applying a very strange set of rules to football all of a sudden.

Do I think there's managers in the conference who could win the treble with City? Erm, not really no. Is it possible there's someone down there who just might? Yeah, I suppose. Don't know why it's coming up here though. I think if there is someone that good down there they'll start making their way up the pyramid sooner rather than later.

Have you got your list of four English managers who could do a good job? Only asking as you said you could name at least three. Welcome to list 5/6/7 if you think there's loads.

I'd like to see if they're a better manager than Tuchel.

Rob Edwards has Luton one point off the Championship relegation zone FYI.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

11 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

You can think that if you want.

I think they get the chance if they're good enough. They do well and get better jobs...then again...then again.

I also think they get given chances they shouldn't because they're English. This is a much bigger problem.

We had Steven Gerrard as manager two years ago. Gareth Southgate was England manager for eight years. Neither deserved a chance or was any good.

The FA runs the England team, not the PL.

I didn't mention wanting Tuchel. I said it's a very exciting appointment which it is.

I don't have a clue what you're talking about. You're applying a very strange set of rules to football all of a sudden.

Do I think there's managers in the conference who could win the treble with City? Erm, not really no. Is it possible there's someone down there who just might? Yeah, I suppose. Don't know why it's coming up here though. I think if there is someone that good down there they'll start making their way up the pyramid sooner rather than later.

Have you got your list of four English managers who could do a good job? Only asking as you said you could name at least three. Welcome to list 5/6/7 if you think there's loads.

I'd like to see if they're a better manager than Tuchel.

Rob Edwards has Luton one point off the Championship relegation zone FYI.

Have a good evening man

[foreveryoung]

18 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Have a good evening man

To be fair, Potter was given the chance, Gerrard, Lampard. You gotta win stuff, then you can work your way to the top.

Unfortunately given the chance, no English managers have been good enough.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

31 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

To be fair, Potter was given the chance, Gerrard, Lampard. You gotta win stuff, then you can work your way to the top.

Unfortunately given the chance, no English managers have been good enough.

My initial stance was just my feelings on National Teams in general.

For me the National Team isn't a " business " like a Club.

For context, it would mean alot more to me for Jamaica to qualify for the World Cup and have a proud showing with a Jamaican Manager, than Steve McLaren 

Now that obviously doesn't mean I won't be happy if it happens with him, but it's just not the same imo. 

It's like Dwight Yorke (Just for scenario sake ), as a Trinidadian, managing Jamaica, and us having a playoff final against them to qualify. Where does the loyalty and passion lay then? Can they genuinely compartmentalise or have the same emotion for the experience as a native?

You'd never find any of traditional the South American teams with a foreign Manager ( Or extremely rare I think ) for example.

I also don't think you can necessarily gauge a manager's ability to be able to guide a National Team to success, the same way you would a Club Manager.

Point I was trying to make above, is that there very well could be a good Manager, who could do a brilliant job with the top players of England at his disposal , as opposed to a lesser club side, along with the many variables which come with club football.

I.E, an excellent progressive Manager who has likely never had the opportunity to manage top players who can execute his vision. Not due to a lack of ability, but due to lack of opportunity and/or resources.

Obviously other things like managing egos and characters also come into play but I'm not sure that's as much of an issue on the international stage.

I feel National Teams should simply be the best each nation has at their disposal from top to bottom.

Aside from this I'm obviously not English so I have no clue why anyone would be getting wound up about my opinion on it

Edited 10 hours ago by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[Herman22]

1 hour ago, mikeyp102 said:

England is clearly a major footballing nation. They would always be one of the teams other nations look out for. 

I think you’ve built up that idea due to the media in England. The reality is that they are a massive under achiever that haven’t won anything in a long long time despite having the strongest league in the world and some of the best players in history. 

 

[VillaChris]

Look what @villa4europe has sparked off...Norwich read this thread, remembered Jack Wilshere actually existed and now appointing him as first team coach so that's where he gets his first managerial chance in 18 months/two years.

[villa4europe]

There is always going to be an argument that you can't or shouldnt have such a major club impact without then being considered a major player at international level 

England do maybe flatter to deceive but then historically with the formation of the game, the PL, the club scene of course England will be considered a major international team, we kind of have to be even if realistically based on actual achievements we dont really deserve it

Kind of sums England up at large not just football