Thomas Tuchel - England Manager

[villa4europe]

1 minute ago, VillaChris said:

Look what @villa4europe has sparked off...Norwich read this thread, remembered Jack Wilshere actually existed and now appointing him as first team coach so that's where he gets his first managerial chance in 18 months/two years.

I was a Google away and thought nah **** it let's just throw wilshere under the bus, the worst of it being it came after 20 mins of googling where all these German coaches came from and whose mate was whose and I didn't bother googling the English lot

[VillaChris]

14 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

I don't think Smith is good enough to be honest.

Just after he left us, and even when he was with us, I was of the same opinion. I probably said on here that he'd be a great choice, I certainly said it in my friends group.

But I don't think so anymore. And you're right, there'd be uproar if we gave a current MLS manager the England job

Dean would be fine as under 21 manager as the way he developed Jacob Ramsey was excellent, giving him sub cameos and the odd start and then a year later started making him a regular.

Not sure he'd leave MLS for under 21 gig but that's his only realistic route and even then the two relegations mean people would struggle to take that appointment seriously.

[VillaChris]

2 hours ago, Davkaus said:

To be fair, Tuchel didn't just walk into the PSG and Chelsea jobs, he put a decade in as a youth and reserves coach before getting a chance to manage Mainz.

Part of me thinks we've got a big problem with English coaches, why do we only have 2 in the Premier League, why has no Englishman won the top flight since 1992. They are the majority in the second tier though, they're just not making it at the top flight. Maybe that's a cost of us being one of the leagues most able to attract international talent, and maybe it's because English football isn't doing what it needs to do in order to develop managers in our own country.

I read yesterday that it's 7 times more expensive to gain your UEFA A license in England than it is in Germany - and over here for that 7 times more money, you get fewer hours training.

Other countries give up and coming managers a chance at major clubs. If they fail then they get a chance at another decent sized club to prove they've learnt from their mistakes. I thought that graphic above was really interesting as Italy is frequently a league that gives up and coming coaches chances and they're not all big names either. Stefano Pioli was a journeyman coach for years but still had chance to manage likes of Lazio and Fiorentina and then eventually got the Milan job where he won the title. Allegri did a good job at Cagliari and then was trusted to lead Juve when he had little reputation as a player compared to say Conte.

Potter was poor at Chelsea but the way people talk about him you'd think they were on the verge of being relegated. Ultimately Poch did little better in his first six months there.

However on the flip side so many of the British managers produce such poor fare to watch. He's an easy target but for such a succesful player it's staggering how much of an underdog mentality Steve Bruce has as a manager. Put him in charge of a team with little expectations and men behind the ball and he does fine at SHA, Wigan and Hull. Put him in charge of a club with pressure and he can't cope as he seemed shocked the fanbase here and at Newcastle actually wanted to win with a bit of style, especially as that was at championship level. The horrific football Gerrard was producing on a weekly basis genuinely makes you wonder how he even passed the FA coaching course he was on.

To me the only competent candidate for England job that is English is Howe as he's proven himself in all the leagues and done an acceptable enough job at Newcastle with more pressure but still a question mark as to whether he'd be any better than Southgate in the later stages. He'll most likely get his chance from 2026.

[VillaChris]

2 hours ago, colhint said:

If you think about it there are 20 premiere league teams with 25 man squads. That's 500 players. How many English in the top 7 (European places) 

There ain't that many. Why should we go for a manager who's English when the club's dont.

 

We actually had six English players start the Man. United game (if you count Cash). Ramsey also a regular when fit.

Man. City and Arsenal regularly have 3-4 English players starting. I don't think it's as big an issue as made out. England always had a problem in different eras they're overflowing in certain areas (attacking midfield) but hardly anything at LB currently which is pretty embarrassing.

If you look at most NTs now they all barely have any decent picks at CF. Morata compared to Torres/David Villa 15 years ago is a serious downgrade and look at what Italy put out there. England will go the same way post Kane but that's simply a consequence of 4-2-3-1 becoming the dominant formation in the premier league in the 2010s.

[foreveryoung]

58 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

My initial stance was just my feelings on National Teams in general.

For me the National Team isn't a " business " like a Club.

For context, it would mean alot more to me for Jamaica to qualify for the World Cup and have a proud showing with a Jamaican Manager, than Steve McLaren 

Now that obviously doesn't mean I won't be happy if it happens with him, but it's just not the same imo. 

It's like Dwight Yorke (Just for scenario sake ), as a Trinidadian, managing Jamaica, and us having a playoff final against them to qualify. Where does the loyalty and passion lay then? Can they genuinely compartmentalise or have the same emotion for the experience as a native?

You'd never find any of traditional the South American teams with a foreign Manager ( Or extremely rare I think ) for example.

I also don't think you can necessarily gauge a manager's ability to be able to guide a National Team to success, the same way you would a Club Manager.

Point I was trying to make above, is that there very well could be a good Manager, who could do a brilliant job with the top players of England at his disposal , as opposed to a lesser club side, along with the many variables which come with club football.

I.E, an excellent progressive Manager who has likely never had the opportunity to manage top players who can execute his vision. Not due to a lack of ability, but due to lack of opportunity and/or resources.

Obviously other things like managing egos and characters also come into play but I'm not sure that's as much of an issue on the international stage.

I feel National Teams should simply be the best each nation has at their disposal from top to bottom.

Aside from this I'm obviously not English so I have no clue why anyone would be getting wound up about my opinion on it

We tried what we thought was a progressive English manager. His name is Gareth Southgate. 

We should be happy we can attract managers like Tuchel, who has won big honours. I mean there's not too many international teams who could take Tuchel.

[VillaChris]

26 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

I was a Google away and thought nah **** it let's just throw wilshere under the bus, the worst of it being it came after 20 mins of googling where all these German coaches came from and whose mate was whose and I didn't bother googling the English lot

Just amused me you randomly brought him up along with Richards (which was a great example as he'd just burst into laughter if he ever attempted a serious team talk) as I had no idea what he was doing either so looked it up.

Perhaps he will be one who does make it as seems to be the best coaches generally are ones who's careers are cut short by injury in their 20s and so they have years to study and formulate their style rather than just being parachuted into a job six months after they retire.

Wilshere's top level career was done by age of 28 and then he retired at 30 so Norwich is a decent enough club to eventually get chance at. Tom Cleverley is doing o.k at Watford and Carrick will probably be the next big hope for domestic candidates as I think Boro will be pretty close to promotion this season.

[FLVillan]

3 hours ago, VillaChris said:

The horrific football Gerrard was producing on a weekly basis genuinely makes you wonder how he even passed the FA coaching course he was on.

To me the only competent candidate for England job that is English is Howe as he's proven himself in all the leagues and done an acceptable enough job at Newcastle with more pressure but still a question mark as to whether he'd be any better than Southgate in the later stages. He'll most likely get his chance from 2026.

 I can answer that for you - the high-profile ex players at the coaching courses I've taken were on a jolly-up, held to a lower standard, and rarely actually had to prove any sort of actual coaching prowess.  The course instructors would big them up while quite a few were genuinely star-struck by the mere presence of them in the course.  The whole concept of requiring coaching badges to get jobs has done nothing to change the old boys club getting favours and jobs over better qualified candidates.  I would cringe during evaluation sessions as ex-pros would sail through with high praise for putting on a crap session, while the same level of session would be absolutely slaughtered when put on by a no-name candidate.

Foreign coaches are judged on their ability to coach.  With a few exceptions, who-you-know/who-you-are is still the more prevalent "qualification" in the English game....

[Tomaszk]

21 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

I don't think Smith is good enough to be honest.

Just after he left us, and even when he was with us, I was of the same opinion. I probably said on here that he'd be a great choice, I certainly said it in my friends group.

But I don't think so anymore. And you're right, there'd be uproar if we gave a current MLS manager the England job

Of course Smith is good enough.

Well actually, depends what your requirements are.

Is he a better manager than Tuchel? Obviously not.

Is he a better manager than Southgate? Obviously yes.

[foreveryoung]

1 hour ago, Tomaszk said:

Of course Smith is good enough.

Well actually, depends what your requirements are.

Is he a better manager than Tuchel? Obviously not.

Is he a better manager than Southgate? Obviously yes.

Coach arguably, im no fan of Southgate  but he was a better manager.

Claret and blue glasses with Smith really. He did some wonderful things with us in the Championship which was probably his level. But If he was as good as we think he was, he'd still be managing in the PL.

[Zatman]

12 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Are the likes of Rob Edwards meant to be winning the Premier League and Champions League with Luton?

Most of them don't get the chance to be able to achieve said " credentials " in the first place.

Rob Edwards isnt English

[Zatman]

6 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

Coach arguably, im no fan of Southgate  but he was a better manager.

Claret and blue glasses with Smith really. He did some wonderful things with us in the Championship which was probably his level. But If he was as good as we think he was, he'd still be managing in the PL.

He did more in Premier League than Southgate ever did

[Zatman]

5 hours ago, FLVillan said:

 I can answer that for you - the high-profile ex players at the coaching courses I've taken were on a jolly-up, held to a lower standard, and rarely actually had to prove any sort of actual coaching prowess.  The course instructors would big them up while quite a few were genuinely star-struck by the mere presence of them in the course.  The whole concept of requiring coaching badges to get jobs has done nothing to change the old boys club getting favours and jobs over better qualified candidates.  I would cringe during evaluation sessions as ex-pros would sail through with high praise for putting on a crap session, while the same level of session would be absolutely slaughtered when put on by a no-name candidate.

Foreign coaches are judged on their ability to coach.  With a few exceptions, who-you-know/who-you-are is still the more prevalent "qualification" in the English game....

Pretty sure Gabby has completed a coaching course so shows the standards

[HanoiVillan]

6 hours ago, FLVillan said:

 I can answer that for you - the high-profile ex players at the coaching courses I've taken were on a jolly-up, held to a lower standard, and rarely actually had to prove any sort of actual coaching prowess.  The course instructors would big them up while quite a few were genuinely star-struck by the mere presence of them in the course.  The whole concept of requiring coaching badges to get jobs has done nothing to change the old boys club getting favours and jobs over better qualified candidates.  I would cringe during evaluation sessions as ex-pros would sail through with high praise for putting on a crap session, while the same level of session would be absolutely slaughtered when put on by a no-name candidate.

Foreign coaches are judged on their ability to coach.  With a few exceptions, who-you-know/who-you-are is still the more prevalent "qualification" in the English game....

This sounds very plausible, fits with what I'd expect. On the one hand quite hard for 'VIPs' to motivate themselves and take it seriously, and on the other even if they do quite hard to get the instructor to stop mooning over them and holding them to a lower standard. 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

1 hour ago, Zatman said:

Rob Edwards isnt English

Is he not?

In fairness I just chucked a name out there for example sake.

I actually think someone like Potter or Howe could have done a good job but I know you guys wouldn't agree due to profile and accolades.