What Class are you? (merged)

[maqroll]

I can bullshit my way into any class, and be found out just as easily.

[Marka Ragnos]

What are some things you value about the middle class? Are there good things you feel that we can learn from the middle classes?

What do you see as threats to the middle class? What are ways to welcome more people into the middle class? What are things that the middle class do to hurt their own middle-classness?

Here's a place to talk about all that a bit.

[Marka Ragnos]

One of the things in the States that I see as eroding the middle class horribly is our lack of a social safety net for older adults and the graying of our population. More money is coming out than going in into social security, and inter-generational wealth transfer has almost become a joke. Only the very wealthy seem able to protect any kind of nest egg they can pass along to their children. A lot of times, we tend to warehouse older people, too, and here sadly corporations that run nursing homes etc. tend to mop up middle class assets. I imagine things are very different in the UK?

[Xela]

What is the definition of middle class?

[Genie]

4 minutes ago, Xela said:

What is the definition of middle class?

Multiple sheds

[mjmooney]

I suspect that Americans define middle class rather differently than Brits. 

[VILLAMARV]

there's a chap I know, lovely fellow, has a big class chip on his shoulder. Often talking about middle class as a perjorative. avocado on toast - middle class, no plastic toys for the kids - middle class, wine not special brew - midle class etc etc. I'm sure everyone has an equivalent friend or acquaintance. He'd describe me as middle class because of my parents house and car I'm sure.

Thing is, he lives with his missus in a 4 bedroom house with a big garden, (2 massive sheds fwiw!). Own a Nice car, a camper/minibus modern VW transorter with alloys n that, both of which could fit on his driveway. Council jobs both he and his missus, so an actual pension ahead of them.

I don't begrudge him the things he's earned or necessarily use these markers to define class status (as you know I rile against group identities anyway) but it does make me chuckle that he can't seem to see that to many people he would fit the very definition of the thing he claims to stand against.

I always liked the Orwellian take of the lower, middle and upper classes all being the proles myself.

 

[mjmooney]

1 hour ago, VILLAMARV said:

avocado on toast - middle class, no plastic toys for the kids - middle class, wine not special brew - midle class etc etc.

Which is what I was hinting at in my last post. In the UK it's not about income, it's all to do with social attitudes and cultural signifiers. What you call the midday meal, whether you have a regional accent, whether you prefer football or rugby union, where you go for your holidays, what TV programmes you watch, whether you wear designer labels, what (if any) books you read, etc., etc. 

I thought we had a specific thread about this some time ago. 

EDIT: Found it. 

https://www.villatalk.com/topic/17601-what-class-are-you/?do=findComment&comment=2434134

Worth a merge, mods? 

Edited September 2 by mjmooney

[El Zen]

Discussing class is always a bit of a minefield, I find, especially in a British context. But you raise an interesting question nonetheless. I am de facto as middle class as you can be, in terms of money and education, very much the product of Scandi-social democratic upward social mobility, but I’ve always been working class at heart and I’ve always been very proud of my working class roots. I guess I am guilty of self-proletarisation from time to time, and can occassionally feel a hint of shame about the privileges I do enjoy. 

To generalise, as is probably necessary to answer the question at all, I have sometimes felt there is a certain degree of anti-intellectualism present in the working class. Some working class people do seem to almost resent education, resent «high» culture, resent the fine arts, as if they all represent something akin to class betrayal, as if they’re somehow incompatible with a working class identity. I guess the middle class can, to again generalise, be a little more intellectually open-minded. 

[mjmooney]

3 minutes ago, El Zen said:

Discussing class is always a bit of a minefield, I find, especially in a British context. But you raise an interesting question nonetheless. I am de facto as middle class as you can be, in terms of money and education, very much the product of Scandi-social democratic upward social mobility, but I’ve always been working class at heart and I’ve always been very proud of my working class roots. I guess I am guilty of self-proletarisation from time to time, and can occassionally feel a hint of shame about the privileges I do enjoy. 

To generalise, as is probably necessary to answer the question at all, I have sometimes felt there is a certain degree of anti-intellectualism present in the working class. Some working class people do seem to almost resent education, resent «high» culture, resent the fine arts, as if they all represent something akin to class betrayal, as if they’re somehow incompatible with a working class identity. I guess the middle class can, to again generalise, be a little more intellectually open-minded. 

Yep. As we noticed in the original thread (linked above), you and I have had similar experiences (despite differences in age and nationality). 

[mjmooney]

Snobbery and inverted snobbery are as rife in Britain as they ever were. 

[one_ian_taylor]

40 minutes ago, El Zen said:

Discussing class is always a bit of a minefield, I find, especially in a British context. But you raise an interesting question nonetheless. I am de facto as middle class as you can be, in terms of money and education, very much the product of Scandi-social democratic upward social mobility, but I’ve always been working class at heart and I’ve always been very proud of my working class roots. I guess I am guilty of self-proletarisation from time to time, and can occassionally feel a hint of shame about the privileges I do enjoy. 

To generalise, as is probably necessary to answer the question at all, I have sometimes felt there is a certain degree of anti-intellectualism present in the working class. Some working class people do seem to almost resent education, resent «high» culture, resent the fine arts, as if they all represent something akin to class betrayal, as if they’re somehow incompatible with a working class identity. I guess the middle class can, to again generalise, be a little more intellectually open-minded. 

I don't think anti intellectualism is a working class thing. I suspect that if you looked at anti-intellectual tendencies across the UK,  you would see a reasonable overlap with populist tendencies, much of which  have been pushed by figures which are as establishment and far from working class as you can get.

[one_ian_taylor]

1 hour ago, mjmooney said:

Which is what I was hinting at in my last post. In the UK it's not about income, it's all to do with social attitudes and cultural signifiers. What you call the midday meal, whether you have a regional accent, whether you prefer football or rugby union, where you go for your holidays, what TV programmes you watch, whether you wear designer labels, what (if any) books you read, etc., etc. 

I thought we had a specific thread about this some time ago. 

EDIT: Found it. 

https://www.villatalk.com/topic/17601-what-class-are-you/?do=findComment&comment=2434134

Worth a merge, mods? 

Much of this rings true. But it's even more nuanced. E.g. if you're  in the southwest, or South Wales, rugby is much more of a working class thing

[mjmooney]

4 minutes ago, one_ian_taylor said:

I don't think anti intellectualism is a working class thing. I suspect that if you looked at anti-intellectual tendencies across the UK,  you would see a reasonable overlap with populist tendencies, much of which  have been pushed by figures which are as establishment and far from working class as you can get.

Chicken and egg. Are Murdoch, Musk, etc. turning the proles away from their natural socialist instincts? Or are they simply exploiting an already existing tendency for their own benefit? 

[bielesibub]

chatGPT 4o is frigging awesome! I'm not sure when I'm going to use google. Any hows I asked it to help me define what class I was in, heres what it came back with:
 

Quote

I asked it, "help me define my class":

To help define your social class within the British context, I can ask you a few questions that might give a clearer picture:

1. **Occupation**:
   - What kind of job do you have (or what kind of job do you aspire to have)? Are you in a manual job, a professional career, or something else?

2. **Income**:
   - What is your approximate income level? Do you feel financially secure, or are you living paycheck to paycheck? Do you own your home, rent, or live with others?

3. **Education**:
   - What is your highest level of education? Did you attend university? If so, where did you study?

4. **Cultural Interests**:
   - What are your main hobbies and interests? Do you enjoy activities like theatre, classical music, and reading? Or are you more into popular culture, sports, or hands-on hobbies?

5. **Family Background**:
   - What were your parents' occupations? Did they have higher education or professional careers, or did they work in manual or service jobs?

6. **Lifestyle**:
   - How do you spend your leisure time? Do you go on holiday frequently, dine out often, attend cultural events, or have memberships in certain clubs or societies?

Answering these questions will help paint a picture of your social class within the traditional British framework. If you’d prefer not to share specific details, you could reflect on these aspects yourself to see where you might fit.

I then carried on with - "

I was director of two limited companies. i had an income of £xxxk. the wife and I have degrees. I love football. my father was a bus driver, my mother ran her own secretarial business. we eat out when we can, our last holiday was at centerparcs",
 

Based on the details you've provided, you would likely be considered part of the **middle class** within the British class system. Here's how each factor contributes to this classification:

1. **Occupation**: Being a director of two limited companies places you in a professional and managerial role, which is typical of the middle class. This role often involves decision-making responsibilities, financial oversight, and a higher level of autonomy.

2. **Income**: An income of £xxxk is significantly above the national average, suggesting a secure financial status, typical of the middle or even upper-middle class. Your financial ability to holiday at places like Center Parcs and dine out regularly also supports this classification.

3. **Education**: Both you and your wife having degrees indicates a higher level of education, which is another strong marker of middle-class status. Education is often linked with professional careers and higher earning potential.

4. **Cultural Interests**: Your interest in football is common across all classes in Britain, but it doesn't detract from your middle-class status. Middle-class individuals often have diverse cultural interests, and enjoying a popular sport like football is quite typical.

5. **Family Background**: Your father's job as a bus driver would traditionally place him in the working class, while your mother's role as the owner of a secretarial business might lean towards the lower middle class. However, your current position and lifestyle suggest upward social mobility, which is common in modern Britain.

6. **Lifestyle**: Holidaying at Center Parcs, a mid-range family-oriented resort, and dining out when possible, are typical middle-class activities. These choices reflect a comfortable lifestyle that values both leisure and family time.

In summary, you fit well within the **middle class**, likely towards the upper end of it, considering your professional status, income, and education. Your background also shows a degree of upward mobility, which is a common narrative in many middle-class families in Britain today.

[dAVe80]

There's no such thing as the middle class, only workers and owners. 

[MakemineVanilla]

The definition of class has changed radically since I was a lad.

It used to be defined by what your dad did for a living: manual, manual skilled, supervisory and managerial etc.

These days economists define it by the amount of discretionary spending people have left after they've paid their bills.

Away from the social sciences, I think things like accent, education, attitudes, values and the range of culture people engage with, as how we tend to see class.

Since DEI has taken root as the way social relations and privilege are assessed, class as the basis for the structure of society has become defunct.

Marx thought that each class pirsued its own interests, and as things stand, as to which class is seen to benefit from recent and present political priorities, it would seem that the middle-class are still dominant when it comes to pirsuing their own interests.

As ever it was!

 

[VILLAMARV]

On 17/05/2018 at 21:30, PompeyVillan said:

Seriously, the 'class' system is so outdated, it's irrelevant. 

What is it based on? Your parents jobs, your job, your childhood? Where you live, your education, what other people think about you?  Your values and morals? Whether you shop at Lidl or Waitrose?

Meh, it's rubbish. I don't like it at all, it reaks of privilege and a need to maintain an unhealthy and unequal status quo. 

 

Pompey nailed it for me. Also I liked pompeyvillan. Not logged in for a while. Hope he's doing ok.

Also @Rissos comment about the upper classes being the "old money" lot is probably all I could really identify with any certainty in the UK. Knowing a handful of old money estate owning toffs as I do they'd be unlikely to count new money types as one of their fold regardless of wealth, acres owned, status symbols and so on. And not that I'd say they were all stuck up like the stereotypes we draw on for reference or I'd be unlikely to associate with them. I mean they exist of course they do, but it's not a one size fits all thing.

I thought *add various governments here* had done away with the traditional class divisions by turning everyone into the underclass anyway.

As I said earlier we're all the proles. Then there's the outer party. Then there's the inner party.

[El Zen]

2 hours ago, dAVe80 said:

There's no such thing as the middle class, only workers and owners. 

I tend to agree, to be honest

[Wainy316]

World class