Vile Summer 2024 Far-right/Anti-immigrant Unrest

[foreveryoung]

1 minute ago, tomav84 said:

I mean people saying it are technically not wrong because it's my understanding that you need a claim to be rejected and then not leaving  before being classed as illegal...but imagine you're not going to come in via these means if you believe there's a decent chance of claim being accepted. So whilst they're not wrong in saying that, they're probably splitting hairs if they're honest 

They don't all go through the system. People need to realise this too when looking at figures.

[lapal_fan]

17 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

I'm happy you have put this straight. Many people have been saying, these people coming over on boats are not illegals. I've always thought, paying a smuggler for a dingy and life jacket, disposing of your passport then coming over the channel without a license can be denoted as illegal.

An to note before i get jumped on. Hardly anyone is saying we don't want immigration, of course we do. What we don't want is the above illegal immigration.

like.. yea man. 

[foreveryoung]

1 minute ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Hang on a minute. Who has said this??

Please don't make me chase the quotes. But it defo has been said in previous conversations.

[sidcow]

29 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

There are still valid concerns people can have about the current level of immigration. I’ve mentioned it previously in this thread but net migration to the UK last year was 685,000 - so basically a 1% increase in our population due to migration.

It's not the simple though. It's not 685,000 extra people just added in because there has been a massive drop off on the birthrate. These people are supplementing babies people no longer have. 

Yes, the population is still growing currently due to immigration, but it's not an explosion as people would have you think because the indigenous population is shrinking. 

[Davkaus]

In previous conversations, they very well not have been illegal, the Tories changed the law in recent years, it wasn't always illegal to cross the channel as long as they claimed asylum at the first opportunity

[MessiWillSignForVilla]

3 minutes ago, tomav84 said:

I mean people saying it are technically not wrong because it's my understanding that you need a claim to be rejected and then not leaving  before being classed as illegal...but imagine you're not going to come in via these means if you believe there's a decent chance of claim being accepted. So whilst they're not wrong in saying that, they're probably splitting hairs if they're honest 

Yeah, by international law you cannot illegally be an asylum seeker, it doesn't matter how you enter the country as often doing so "legally" can put a target on your back if you're running from an unsafe country, so it's often better for asylum seekers to flee first then claim asylum. Typically this is countered by operating safe and open ways for people to claim asylum and allowing them get somewhere safe first, either in that country or another safe country, and then opening the asylum process. The problem is that the Tories cut most of these safe routes and jammed up the claims process leaving people in a desperate state to get to the UK to claim asylum. In fact some (me) would say that the Tories intentionally created and fostered the small boats situation so that they could use it as anti-immigration rhetoric, when the glaringly obvious way to solve the issue was to make claiming asylum and processing those claims easier, safer and more efficient.

[lapal_fan]

@MCU - It's also worth noting that the people of the UK are battered with anti-immigration information all the time. 

We all pop the the supermarket to pick stuff up, walk to the cashier and are usually stood next to the newspaper section.  It's completely forgivable that people feel the way they do about immigration, because.. well, look;

If you've read 5 of those headlines you'll be thinking "bastards!" but there is often so much information left out, such as "We need immigrants to do jobs no English people want to do", like picking fruit is the usual go-to, carers, hospital staff, labourers on building sites, other skilled construction jobs, cleaners in Facilities Management companies.  

If you look at the bottom row, 2nd on the left headline "Migrants Spark Housing Crisis!" - well.. kinda.  Because there are only so many houses and our population is growing - the headline is right.   BUT, what the headline doesn't tell you, is that the conservatives pledged to build 1 million publicly funded houses (council houses), and built 0.  

Now you might be thinking "but I've seen housing estates go up around.." and you'd be right, but those are private firms, building for profit and they'd never build houses to sell at a loss, or £0.  They want profit, so they build houses which start at £250k-350k-450k+ - and no immigrant is being put in those.  But the low paid workers can't afford them either, so they have less places to stay too, because housing stock is rising in prices because there's so few houses! 

Therefore, ultimately, the government aren't building houses, there's more people and all the old farts who live in houses built in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s don't want to lose their views, so they fight against building on green land (which IS a sad thing, but its a NECESSARY thing).

It's complicated man. 

[DCJonah]

For those super angry about illegal immigration, could they explain the legal routes these people have to get here? 

 

Also, I'm pretty sure that once processed around 75% of the people coming here are granted permission. 

If you want to kick off about anything, kick off about the ridiculous process that the Tories have turned it into. 

But no, because that would take having half a brain. It's much easier to allow yourself to get riled up by Farage and other con men on the internet. 

[lapal_fan]

2 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

For those super angry about illegal immigration, could they explain the legal routes these people have to get here? 

 

Also, I'm pretty sure that once processed around 75% of the people coming here are granted permission. 

If you want to kick off about anything, kick off about the ridiculous process that the Tories have turned it into. 

But no, because that would take having half a brain. It's much easier to allow yourself to get riled up by Farage and other con men on the internet. 

That's the thing isn't it?  It's the fact that our government(s) haven't done certain things and have done certain other things to mess lots of different processes up.

But we - as the non-powerful majority - get pissed off at the person, not the system, which is where we should be kicking off about.

The French do it so much better than us.  Wouldn't it be lovely if we all went on the streets to ensure we give ourselves better lives (money, benefits, putting back eroded rights etc).  Brits are absolutely shit at it and it's mostly because of people like Farage & co. 

Meanwhile, they get much, MUCH wealthier. 

We're absolute morons, honestly. 

[_AA_786]

6 minutes ago, lapal_fan said:

@MCU - It's also worth noting that the people of the UK are battered with anti-immigration information all the time. 

We all pop the the supermarket to pick stuff up, walk to the cashier and are usually stood next to the newspaper section.  It's completely forgivable that people feel the way they do about immigration, because.. well, look;

If you've read 5 of those headlines you'll be thinking "bastards!" but there is often so much information left out, such as "We need immigrants to do jobs no English people want to do", like picking fruit is the usual go-to, carers, hospital staff, labourers on building sites, other skilled construction jobs, cleaners in Facilities Management companies.  

If you look at the bottom row, 2nd on the left headline "Migrants Spark Housing Crisis!" - well.. kinda.  Because there are only so many houses and our population is growing - the headline is right.   BUT, what the headline doesn't tell you, is that the conservatives pledged to build 1 million publicly funded houses (council houses), and built 0.  

Now you might be thinking "but I've seen housing estates go up around.." and you'd be right, but those are private firms, building for profit and they'd never build houses to sell at a loss, or £0.  They want profit, so they build houses which start at £250k-350k-450k+ - and no immigrant is being put in those.  But the low paid workers can't afford them either, so they have less places to stay too, because housing stock is rising in prices because there's so few houses! 

Therefore, ultimately, the government aren't building houses, there's more people and all the old farts who live in houses built in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s don't want to lose their views, so they fight against building on green land (which IS a sad thing, but its a NECESSARY thing).

It's complicated man. 

All very valid points.

Going off topic a bit but the housing, benefit and taxation systems all need a complete overhaul. Unfortunately I don't think it's fixable in one term and it's tough to stay in power as some of the changes impact older people who vote in proportionally greater numbers.

We often talk about first time buyers struggling to raise deposits for houses but another issue is the lack of progression from restrictive taxes like SDLT. Whilst people get help for the first house, they then don't move on quick enough to free up those "starter" homes so the supply chain is squeezed further. Example being, I'm potentially looking at a bill of about £35k in stamp duty for the privilege of moving home and that's not me owning 2 houses. People need to therefore have deposits + stamp duty just to move creating an extra barrier - this is in spite of paying income tax, VAT and everything else. So the housing market grinds to a snail pace

 

[sidcow]

16 minutes ago, lapal_fan said:

We're absolute morons, honestly. 

Speak for yourself!

I'm an imbecile.

[lapal_fan]

1 minute ago, _AA_786 said:

All very valid points.

Going off topic a bit but the housing, benefit and taxation systems all need a complete overhaul. Unfortunately I don't think it's fixable in one term and it's tough to stay in power as some of the changes impact older people who vote in proportionally greater numbers.

We often talk about first time buyers struggling to raise deposits for houses but another issue is the lack of progression from restrictive taxes like SDLT. Whilst people get help for the first house, they then don't move on quick enough to free up those "starter" homes so the supply chain is squeezed further. Example being, I'm potentially looking at a bill of about £35k in stamp duty for the privilege of moving home and that's not me owning 2 houses. People need to therefore have deposits + stamp duty just to move creating an extra barrier - this is in spite of paying income tax, VAT and everything else. So the housing market grinds to a snail pace

 

Exactly the same issue with me.  It's not the houses I can't afford, it's the high interest repayments and mental amount of stamp duty.  Therefore, there doesn't seem like a good time to move, yet (hopefully). 

[ml1dch]

53 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

They don't all go through the system. People need to realise this too when looking at figures.

There are undoubtedly people who don't go through the system and who are working outside of the mainstream economy. However they tend to be people who have come legally and then stayed longer than they should, rather than smuggling themselves in and vanishing. It's more likely to be the student who had a two year study visa and then didn't leave, or the backpacker on the tourist visa who is happy doing cash-in-hand bar work.

They're also of course not receiving anything from the state - because they have placed themselves outside of the system.

The "small boats" people that Farage's mob are targetting are deliberately on the small boats because they want to "go through the system".

Edited August 9 by ml1dch

[foreveryoung]

8 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

There are undoubtedly people who don't go through the system and who are working outside of the mainstream economy. However they tend to be people who have come legally and then stayed longer than they should, rather than smuggling themselves in and vanishing. It's more likely to be the student who had a two year study visa and then didn't leave, or the backpacker on the tourist visa who is happy doing cash-in-hand bar work.

They're also of course not receiving anything from the state - because they have placed themselves outside of the system.

The "small boats" people that Farage's mob are targetting are deliberately on the small boats because they want to "go through the system".

I'm not sure of this chap. The police and are catching immigrants all the time who shouldn't be here. Bit nieve to think they get off the dingies and go straight to the closest immigration centre and que up.

[limpid]

1 hour ago, foreveryoung said:

Please don't make me chase the quotes. But it defo has been said in previous conversations.

It's your claim. Back it up. Please ensure your response contains "many people".

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, foreveryoung said:

Please don't make me chase the quotes. But it defo has been said in previous conversations.

If we’re going to have a normal conversation about it, this is the tricky part about the whole debate. 
 

Everyone getting here on a small boat is technically breaking the law. 
But some of the people on the boats will eventually have a right to be here. An asylum seeker/refugee will have a right to be here once they make their claim and it’s accepted. We force them to break the law to get here because there is literally no legal way for them to make the journey. 
 

Others on the boat will have absolutely no right to be here and never will. 
 

To me it’s the latter that I’m against. Not the former. The latter are the true illegal immigrants. 
 

The asylum seekers to me are not illegal immigrants because they have a right to be here. 
 

 

This is why we should put the resources we’ve wasted on gimmicks like Rwanda into making safe a legal routes for people who actually have a right to be here. That has the benefit of making it safer for them and making it easier to police the small boats because the people left on them actually will be illegal immigrants.

[sidcow]

2 hours ago, sidcow said:

I mean on that, the NHS is COMPLETELY propped up by immigration.  The whole thing would collapse without immigrants.  I don't know the figures, I am sure someone on here will have them but I would bet the NHS is at least 40% staffed by immigrants.  And at the lower levels I would bet it's more like 80%.

So for NHS waiting lists I would say they'd be off the scale without immigrants.  Or more likely we wouldn't have an NHS and we would all be paying for private healthcare, leaving the poorest in society absolutely stranded.  I'm sure some of our American friends can describe living in USA with no private healthcare plans available to you.

OK so it seems I was way out.  Apparently only 7 per cent (264,815) overall NHS workers are from overseas but percentages for nurses are much higher – nearly 27 per cent of NHS nurses are from overseas.  I still say if you take away 27% of nurses you're in massive trouble.

I am also suspicious of the figures.  I've been to hospital for various reasons lately and 7/27% seems very low unless I'm meeting a lot of 2nd generation immigrants who still have very strong foreign sounding accents.

However I suspect an explanation may be that these stats only cover directly employed people.  As we know the NHS is relying more and more on private firms to provide staff.  Maybe a bigger percentage of these are immigrants.

Certainly in the case for example of my parents carers I doubt they are employed directly by the NHS and are engaged by a private firm contracted to the NHS. 

I guess a bigger question would be what proportion of NHS services are carried out by immigrants.  Those figures are probably not easy to identify.  I've a feeling if I examined the care company who attends my parents they probably have management and office workers who are UK born people and 99% of carers employed by them are immigrants.  Certainly every permanent person who has attended him and every single holiday cover person has been an immigrant.

[foreveryoung]

4 minutes ago, sidcow said:

OK so it seems I was way out.  Apparently only 7 per cent (264,815) overall NHS workers are from overseas but percentages for nurses are much higher – nearly 27 per cent of NHS nurses are from overseas.  I still say if you take away 27% of nurses you're in massive trouble.

I am also suspicious of the figures.  I've been to hospital for various reasons lately and 7/27% seems very low unless I'm meeting a lot of 2nd generation immigrants who still have very strong foreign sounding accents.

However I suspect an explanation may be that these stats only cover directly employed people.  As we know the NHS is relying more and more on private firms to provide staff.  Maybe a bigger percentage of these are immigrants.

Certainly in the case for example of my parents carers I doubt they are employed directly by the NHS and are engaged by a private firm contracted to the NHS. 

I guess a bigger question would be what proportion of NHS services are carried out by immigrants.  Those figures are probably not easy to identify.  I've a feeling if I examined the care company who attends my parents they probably have management and office workers who are UK born people and 99% of carers employed by them are immigrants.  Certainly every permanent person who has attended him and every single holiday cover person has been an immigrant.

We are not questioning legal immigration so this is irrelevant. 

Illegal immigration is what most people have a issue with.

[MCU]

I am reading all of your responses btw, not being ignorant. Appreciate the insight @lapal_fan @sidcow @_AA_786 

I am so disappointed I’ve been led to believe certain things… there is no population crisis is there?

[trekka]

On 08/08/2024 at 09:02, MCU said:

My evening was good! Watched the Villa, had a succulent Chinese meal. Didn’t pay much attention to the one sided news.

The silent majority are waking up, whether you all like it or not.

I see what you did there.  If you didn't do it on purpose, great timing!