Vile Summer 2024 Far-right/Anti-immigrant Unrest

[ml1dch]

Two-tier policing latest...

 

[Davkaus]

3 minutes ago, MCU said:

Do you think there's any truth in Reform's claim that NHS waiting lists, waiting for a DR's appointment and the need for more houses is contributed from immigration? I noticed this never really got challenged in the debates during the election.

 

There's absolutely all kinds of impacts from the massive levels of immigration. The challenge is seeing which ones are mitigated by immigrations positives.

In a somewhat related topic, today's news is that the impact of the Tories visa changes are that while we can't stop the boats, we have managed to reduce the number of health and social care workers applying for skilled workers visas by 80%

Edited August 9 by Davkaus

[Follyfoot]

1 hour ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I don't think this thread has anything to do with being against illegal immigration does it?

In fact is there anybody in the country that is pro illegal immigration?

Illegal Immigrants ? 

[sidcow]

2 hours ago, MCU said:

Do you think there's any truth in Reform's claim that NHS waiting lists, waiting for a DR's appointment and the need for more houses is contributed from immigration? I noticed this never really got challenged in the debates during the election.

I mean on that, the NHS is COMPLETELY propped up by immigration.  The whole thing would collapse without immigrants.  I don't know the figures, I am sure someone on here will have them but I would bet the NHS is at least 40% staffed by immigrants.  And at the lower levels I would bet it's more like 80%.

So for NHS waiting lists I would say they'd be off the scale without immigrants.  Or more likely we wouldn't have an NHS and we would all be paying for private healthcare, leaving the poorest in society absolutely stranded.  I'm sure some of our American friends can describe living in USA with no private healthcare plans available to you.

Edited August 9 by sidcow

[_AA_786]

4 minutes ago, MCU said:

Do you think there's any truth in Reform's claim that NHS waiting lists, waiting for a DR's appointment and the need for more houses is contributed from immigration? I noticed this never really got challenged in the debates during the election.

Mate, we need to use the word illegal or legal before immigration to know which we're talking about as they're very very different.

Assuming it's illegal you're asking about.... and with the caveat I'm not an immigration expert, to my knowledge an illegal immigrant cannot work in the UK, cannot get benefits and cannot vote. Every living person in the UK regardless of residency status can be given primary care from a GP or Hospital as its part of the founding principles to not turn any person away. Without having exact figures and instead using family who either run a large GP surgery, work in the NHS etc. they say illegal immigrants seeking medical help are very few. Think of it this way, if you're illegally in a country you'd likely be extremely wary to raise your head above the parapet by going into a hospital where you could be reported.

Should the illegal imigrant, file for asylum then the rules change a little. They would be eligible to some kind of basic housing whilst their case is assessed (these are the no frills hotels/buildings people are attacking) and a small allowance of about £50 a week I think for their bare essentials. Consider that they can't then work, that £200 per month is not a lot to live on so the notion that illegals are living it up at other people's expense doesn't hold much water

Hope that helps

[limpid]

3 minutes ago, _AA_786 said:

Should the illegal imigrant, file for asylum then the rules change a little. They would be eligible to some kind of basic housing whilst their case is assessed (these are the no frills hotels/buildings people are attacking) and a small allowance of about £50 a week I think for their bare essentials. Consider that they can't then work, that £200 per month is not a lot to live on so the notion that illegals are living it up at other people's expense doesn't hold much water

And a quick fix would be to let them work (and pay tax) while their application is processed like every other country does.

[MCU]

4 minutes ago, _AA_786 said:

Mate, we need to use the word illegal or legal before immigration to know which we're talking about as they're very very different.

Assuming it's illegal you're asking about.... and with the caveat I'm not an immigration expert, to my knowledge an illegal immigrant cannot work in the UK, cannot get benefits and cannot vote. Every living person in the UK regardless of residency status can be given primary care from a GP or Hospital as its part of the founding principles to not turn any person away. Without having exact figures and instead using family who either run a large GP surgery, work in the NHS etc. they say illegal immigrants seeking medical help are very few. Think of it this way, if you're illegally in a country you'd likely be extremely wary to raise your head above the parapet by going into a hospital where you could be reported.

Should the illegal imigrant, file for asylum then the rules change a little. They would be eligible to some kind of basic housing whilst their case is assessed (these are the no frills hotels/buildings people are attacking) and a small allowance of about £50 a week I think for their bare essentials. Consider that they can't then work, that £200 per month is not a lot to live on so the notion that illegals are living it up at other people's expense doesn't hold much water

Hope that helps

Makes sense, thanks for the explanation. Think I know what the answer is going to be , but how is Farage hoodwinking people with this shit? (ie embarrassingly me ). Is it because we allow a large number of immigrants in via family connections? Sorry, I'm quite weary of going majorily off topic here and could probably do a lot of this research for myself elsewhere.

[_AA_786]

4 minutes ago, limpid said:

And a quick fix would be to let them work (and pay tax) while their application is processed like every other country does.

Agreed.  Instead we've chosen to keep them in holding pens while the decisions crawl along. Then we get surprised that a minority then hang around outside the buildings to get air and we find that image off-putting. 

[Rugeley Villa]

31 minutes ago, MCU said:

Fair play. Not going to lie, politically I'm learning all the time, especially as I'm getting older. Sometimes the tough love gets through so appreciate some of the rightful questioning.

Don’t listen to em’ mate they’ll have you going to watch Billy Bragg soon enough 

[_AA_786]

2 minutes ago, MCU said:

Makes sense, thanks for the explanation. Think I know what the answer is going to be , but how is Farage hoodwinking people with this shit? (ie embarrassingly me ). Is it because we allow a large number of immigrants in via family connections? Sorry, I'm quite weary of going majorily off topic here and could probably do a lot of this research for myself elsewhere.

He hoodwinks people because he's skilled in fear mongering and saying something to sound like a thing without actually saying it (as that gives him deniability). People then are unfortunately either not politically aware or overly trusting/reliant on what they're told. That combination allows him to always appeal to those who only hear snippets.

Not all Reform voters are racist and a large chunk are based on the above.

• Legal migration is predominantly through the people qualifying through their skills/jobs. Those people contribute to the country far more than they take away
• Illegal migration is based on no criteria other than who survives the journey

[_AA_786]

29 minutes ago, Follyfoot said:

Illegal Immigrants ? 

Surely the smugglers would be the #1 fan of illegal immigration given they exploit each person and make wedges of cash off them

[Mozzavfc]

6 minutes ago, MCU said:

Makes sense, thanks for the explanation. Think I know what the answer is going to be , but how is Farage hoodwinking people with this shit? (ie embarrassingly me ). Is it because we allow a large number of immigrants in via family connections? Sorry, I'm quite weary of going majorily off topic here and could probably do a lot of this research for myself elsewhere.

Because people like Farage are banking on people not checking, and they provide an easy answer that makes a sound bite.

The country is on its knees due to the Tories being in power. Years of missed house building targets/removing targets altogether has meant having somewhere is live is a pipe dream for a lot of people. There has been virtually no increase in capacity in the NHS leading to big waitlists. The number of doctor training places has only gone up by 2000 since 2013. The number of dentist trainings places is the same as 2013. Number of people allowed to become a judge is roughly the same as ten years, leading to backlogs in the courts. The list goes on and on, and it all leads to chronic lack of investment in infrastructure capacity 

[Panto_Villan]

6 minutes ago, MCU said:

Makes sense, thanks for the explanation. Think I know what the answer is going to be , but how is Farage hoodwinking people with this shit? (ie embarrassingly me ). Is it because we allow a large number of immigrants in via family connections? Sorry, I'm quite weary of going majorily off topic here and could probably do a lot of this research for myself elsewhere.

There are still valid concerns people can have about the current level of immigration. I’ve mentioned it previously in this thread but net migration to the UK last year was 685,000 - so basically a 1% increase in our population due to migration.

That does obviously strain our infrastructure, and even if each one was a net gain to the treasury then that might not be much consolation to a local area if 500 migrants move there and strain the local schools / hospitals/ housing but then the tax benefits go out of the local area to the national government instead.

The problem is there’s a long way between having concerns about immigration and taking to the streets to fight police and ethnic minorities in support of a Britain where everyone is white and nobody is Muslim.

[tomav84]

50 minutes ago, MCU said:

Do you think there's any truth in Reform's claim that NHS waiting lists, waiting for a DR's appointment and the need for more houses is contributed from immigration? I noticed this never really got challenged in the debates during the election.

i imagine it's something that's impossible to claim? you'd need to disclose the number of appointments/surgeries etc being performed on illegal migrants vs the rest which possibly violates privacy laws...even if it doesn't, i've just had a (very quick) google, and there's no obvious data on this subject that's been released

[foreveryoung]

25 minutes ago, _AA_786 said:

He hoodwinks people because he's skilled in fear mongering and saying something to sound like a thing without actually saying it (as that gives him deniability). People then are unfortunately either not politically aware or overly trusting/reliant on what they're told. That combination allows him to always appeal to those who only hear snippets.

Not all Reform voters are racist and a large chunk are based on the above.

• Legal migration is predominantly through the people qualifying through their skills/jobs. Those people contribute to the country far more than they take away
• Illegal migration is based on no criteria other than who survives the journey

I'm happy you have put this straight. Many people have been saying, these people coming over on boats are not illegals. I've always thought, paying a smuggler for a dingy and life jacket, disposing of your passport then coming over the channel without a license can be denoted as illegal.

An to note before i get jumped on. Hardly anyone is saying we don't want immigration, of course we do. What we don't want is the above illegal immigration.

[MessiWillSignForVilla]

32 minutes ago, MCU said:

Do you think there's any truth in Reform's claim that NHS waiting lists, waiting for a DR's appointment and the need for more houses is contributed from immigration? I noticed this never really got challenged in the debates during the election.

In short, no. Reform want to privatise the NHS and introduce a insurance-based healthcare system in this country, whilst introducing sweeping cuts to public services, however that isn't very popular (and the economics of how they plan to do it are a bit Liz Truss), so they shift the focus on to immigration as a scapegoat for these issues when they are unrelated, because they essentially wish to exascerbate these issues.

These issues have been caused in the first place by sweeping, ideological cuts by the Tories over the past 14 years which has left most public services unable to properly fund themselves and falling into disrepair. The NHS for example simply doesn't have enough nurses and doctors which drives up waiting lists, and many that train here, UK national or not, end up moving abroad because even if they get a job in the NHS the pay is woefully lacking. The Tories have often responded to these "underperformances" by further cutting funding which again makes the situation worse, which leads to a cycle of underperformance and spending cuts. This tactic is known as "starving the beast" and originates in America with Reagan and the Republicans, the intention is to force public institutions into such a bad state that the "only" viable option is to privatise and sell it off. If anything as pinted out in this thread, immigration actually helps prop these institutions up as often immigrants are more willing to take the lower paying jobs on offer as they may still be better than the opportunities, or lack of, from where they have emigrated from.

In regards to housing, it's an issue that is more due to regulations tying up potential new developments as well as existing homes increasingly becoming rental opportunities and being gobbled up by investors, sometimes even private equity firms, which somewhat artificially depresses how much housing stock is available to buy and increases house prices. Numbers I could find for England show there are ~600k unoccupied homes and ~4.6m houses in the rental sector, roughly 22% of house between the two of them if my maths is right. Interestingly enough one of the places I got figures from, the England Housing Survey from a couple of years ago, shows that 96% of owner occupiers in England are UK Nationals. One of the biggest issues with housing right now is that for many people, especially younger people, it is hard to make that step from renter to owner, which is less that the homes aren't there and more that they aren't on the market.

And the reason these things weren't spoken about in the debates were partly because Labour had signed up to the Tory's fiscal rules, so they couldn't challenge too much on them without coming across like they were going to break those rules, and because parties like Reform and the Tories like the cover of immigration as it means they don't have to go into detail on their economic plans. But even outside of ideological/politcal reasons, another reason this stuff isn't challenged is because the solutions (there is no single thing that can fix the root issues at play) wouldn't be popular as it would likely mean taxes going up and house prices falling, even if those things were targeted to affect a small portion of population that could bear the extra cost, we've seen in recent years how such solutions are used as scare tactics to make everyone worse off - see the Tories tax line they used in the election.

These are very surface level looks at the issues, and admittedly quite left wing ones which more centrist members on here may disagree with the conclusions of, but it's all to say that they have been caused by economic policy over the past 14 years, or even further possibly if you're not on board with Blairism, it has not been caused by immigration as the pressures caused by immigration are wholly insignificant compared to the austerity of the past 14 years.

[sidcow]

57 minutes ago, MCU said:

Do you think there's any truth in Reform's claim that NHS waiting lists, waiting for a DR's appointment and the need for more houses is contributed from immigration? I noticed this never really got challenged in the debates during the election.

The other thing I would say about legal immigration is this. 

The UK birthrate Is falling.  The old 2.4 children addage died years ago. The current birthrate is 1.56.  That means the population (all other things being equal) is shrinking, and pretty quickly.

Great, sorts out our housing shortages doesn't it? 

Problem is you end up with lots and lots of old people needing pensions and health care. But you have very few young working age people to pay taxes causing a massive economic shock. No one to pay for the old people's pensions and health are. No tax coming in, plus no one to do lots of jobs. 

Those few working age people can demand massive wages so inflation is rife. 

Now of you think this sound far fetched, go and Google issues with the ageing population in Japan because that's exactly what's happening there.  They were very anti immigration for decades and now these problems are hitting them like a hammer. 

In short a shrinking population is a problem and if you don't supplement it with immigration you're going to end up in big trouble. 

 

[sidcow]

43 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said:

Don’t listen to em’ mate they’ll have you going to watch Billy Bragg soon enough 

Life's a Riot mate 

[tomav84]

12 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

I'm happy you have put this straight. Many people have been saying, these people coming over on boats are not illegals. I've always thought, paying a smuggler for a dingy and life jacket, disposing of your passport then coming over the channel without a license can be denoted as illegal.

An to note before i get jumped on. Hardly anyone is saying we don't want immigration, of course we do. What we don't want is the above illegal immigration.

I mean people saying it are technically not wrong because it's my understanding that you need a claim to be rejected and then not leaving  before being classed as illegal...but imagine you're not going to come in via these means if you believe there's a decent chance of claim being accepted. So whilst they're not wrong in saying that, they're probably splitting hairs if they're honest 

[Vive_La_Villa]

16 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

I'm happy you have put this straight. Many people have been saying, these people coming over on boats are not illegals. I've always thought, paying a smuggler for a dingy and life jacket, disposing of your passport then coming over the channel without a license can be denoted as illegal.

An to note before i get jumped on. Hardly anyone is saying we don't want immigration, of course we do. What we don't want is the above illegal immigration.

Hang on a minute. Who has said this??