Davkaus Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 1 minute ago, sidcow said: The issue is that the Palestinian flag thing is a transient, recent thing brought about due to a specific recent event. The English flag has been dragged through the mud and trampled on by by thugs and racists for decades. Yeah, it's a shame, but it's true. I wouldn't immediately assume they're racist, but it'd raise an eyebrow if I saw a St George's cross flying, in a way that wouldn't at all cause any concern if it were a Union flag. It's not about two tiers or treating Palestine differently, otherwise we'd have people judging the Union flag being flown as well, but we don't, that's never been a thing, because the far right haven't shit all over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 1 minute ago, sidcow said: The issue is that the Palestinian flag thing is a transient, recent thing brought about due to a specific recent event. The English flag has been dragged through the mud and trampled on by by thugs and racists for decades. I’m not super sure I can agree with that. It’s a few decades since I was a student, there were Palestinian flags back then. I was over in Belfast a couple of years ago, there were plenty of Palestinian flags there then. It’s been a cause for a long time. I think for some people they are seeing a huge uptick in support for a fair peace as being hoards of Muslims waving the flag of another country. But I suspect they wouldn’t see the same threat if there was a pro Ukrainian march with lots of their flags. for whatever reason. The cross of St George is used by bad people, but don’t slip in to thinking there is some weird english exceptionalism. Every country has a nasty minority that tries to get people to rally behind a flag. You see the english stuff more because that’s where you are. You’d see nasty right wing types on youtube with Welsh flags, or large marches through east Germany with German flags, or Russian flags in Russia if you were looking elsewhere. Personally, my bias is against the union flag. I see one of those, I instantly presume that’s an english person’s garden and he burns stuff on his bbq and has a hot tub that can be seen from the street. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 5 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: I'm not so sure about this , coupled with the clear rise of the right in some European countries I think this could potentially get worse They might not be throwing bricks at the police , attacking immigrants or destroying buildings , but the Police need to publicly charge some of the counter protestors who were running around with knives a bit sharpish or the two tier policing line will run and run and I think that will stoke the flames even more as stream and streams of white people are "made an example of " even at a time when the internet was spreading the lie that a Muslim immigrant had killed 3 children , going on TV and stating publicly to the Muslim communities "we will protect you" , probably sent a few more clearings in the woods onto the street , you and I may understand what he was trying to say , but the click and share brigade don't do context , they do outrage There is a story today that Anti Semitism has hit record highs , I think some sections of society will equate that to Muslims and their regular demos in London rather than Israel's actions in responding to a terror attack on its citizens by killing and starving civilians , but it fans the flames even more The hard core racists are few and almost certainly can't be changed , but those 15 year old scrotes on the street , those outraged by what they read on Facebook , influenced by the bloke down the pub or a WhatsApp post ..I think they can ,they just need to be shown that they aren't the victims in all this . The government have only been in a month so they need time but with a few actions they can pretty much make Reform irrelevant , firstly by be stopping the "uncontrolled immigration" ... As we've seen , the right seem to be partial to Chinese food , so they aren't totally against immigration , more the current perception of an invasion by armies on boats across the channel , stop them ( and don't re-join the EU ) and Reform pretty much cease to exist , and then there isn't airtime for them to spread the division and hate Possibly true, but my gut feeling is that a lot of racist people are just fundamentally racist and not that charged up about it unless there’s a particularly divisive issue that gets brought up in the public domain (Brexit, “Stop The Boats” etc). If something crops up and is repeated a LOT, it gets the public worked up and brings out the worst in people. If we don’t have these things repeatedly spouted, it isn’t in the forefront of people’s minds and society calms down - politics becomes more about actual policy rather than extremism. Maybe it’s just wishful thinking on my part though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choffer Posted August 8 VT Supporter Share Posted August 8 (edited) 3 minutes ago, bobzy said: Possibly true, but my gut feeling is that a lot of racist people are just fundamentally racist and not that charged up about it unless there’s a particularly divisive issue that gets brought up in the public domain (Brexit, “Stop The Boats” etc). If something crops up and is repeated a LOT, it gets the public worked up and brings out the worst in people. If we don’t have these things repeatedly spouted, it isn’t in the forefront of people’s minds and society calms down - politics becomes more about actual policy rather than extremism. Maybe it’s just wishful thinking on my part though. Isn't that the problem though? One murder and Tommeh's mob will be all over it saying "it woz a moozlim" and then they're all out helping themselves to crocs and lighting bin fires again? I truly hope not but the pattern is well established now and to break that seems like a tough ask. Edited August 8 by choffer Sorry - not sure I've read your post properly first time around. Not disagreeing with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 14 minutes ago, Davkaus said: It's not about two tiers or treating Palestine differently, otherwise we'd have people judging the Union flag being flown as well, but we don't, that's never been a thing, because the far right haven't shit all over it. 8 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Personally, my bias is against the union flag. I see one of those, I instantly presume that’s an english person’s garden and he burns stuff on his bbq and has a hot tub that can be seen from the street. You contrary **** 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted August 8 VT Supporter Share Posted August 8 31 minutes ago, MCU said: Not sure why you keep getting personal but I’m entitled to my opinion just as much as you are. Never said you weren't. I just said it was sad that it's clearly such an extreme minority opinion (despite your delusions that it's the majority) as it's such a hateful one 32 minutes ago, MCU said: Wanting to vote for a party trying to get a hold of illegal immigration is not racist. I never said it was. I said the people rioting are racists. And they absolutely are. 32 minutes ago, MCU said: Theres scum bags either side of your political bubble, my argument is you seem to disregarding and burying your head in the sand about the one. I completely agree there are scumbags on both sides. But we're specifically talking about the racist scumbags rioting. I'm not burying my head in the sand about anything. The stuff you've popped up in thie thread and moaned about are demonstrably untrue. That's not burying my head, it's looking at evidence and seeing that the stuff you're arguing for is nonsense 34 minutes ago, MCU said: I’d happily debate you for hours but sadly most of you keep reverting to just calling me a racist and to take a long hard look at myself which quite simply tells me all I need to know. (Comes back to my previous point, the two tier system in this country couldn’t be more obvious). It's genuine concern. It's sad to see people brainwased into extreme minority opinions. And I mean that about any extreme minority opinion on any side of the political spectrum. I'm sorry about you being called racist, but you are aligning yourself with a racist party and on the side of people participating in racist riots. What do you expect? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted August 8 VT Supporter Share Posted August 8 32 minutes ago, mrchnry said: I think disregarding anyone's opinion on immigration as them being racist and thick is kinda how we ended up with brexit. There's a large amount of demand avoidance when you call someone's opinions wrong because yours are right. I've always been fairly left wing but 10 years ago most wouldn't have had a clue what left and right meant. 14 years of divide and conquer and now you're either hard left or hard right. It's not a healthy environment for discussion. It will take some time to heal that rift. This isn't a thread or discussion about immigration. The people rioting aren't exactly making a serious point about immigration. They are racist riots. Immigration is an excuse These people are "protesting" against illegal immigration. That would actually be fine, on the face of it. But it's manifesting itself through racist attacks and focusing on things like refugees, who are not illegal immigrants. These people object to brown people. It's as simple as that. Don't let them hide behind "oh it's just my opinion on immigration". Is it ****. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted August 8 VT Supporter Share Posted August 8 34 minutes ago, MCU said: Wave a Palestinian flag - unity Wave an English flag - far right / racist The post you replied to wasn't remotely saying the english flag was racist. It was actually saying they wanted to see more english flags in the counter protests. Which is why it was such a bizarre post and everyone jumped on you You were so desperate to get another right wing buzzword into your posts that you didn't even realise the post you were replying to was being positive about the english flag 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 8 minutes ago, choffer said: Isn't that the problem though? One murder and Tommeh's mob will be all over it saying "it woz a moozlim" and then they're all out helping themselves to crocs and lighting bin fires again? I truly hope not but the pattern is well established now and to break that seems like a tough ask. I think that’s probably true, but I don’t think you get riots in the way we’ve seen if “stop the boats” hadn’t been peddled so heavily by the Tories. You might have seen some nonsense but, if illegal immigration was on the back burner as an issue then I don’t think the racists react as they did. Might be wrong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted August 8 VT Supporter Share Posted August 8 8 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: I’m not super sure I can agree with that. It’s a few decades since I was a student, there were Palestinian flags back then. I was over in Belfast a couple of years ago, there were plenty of Palestinian flags there then. It’s been a cause for a long time. I think for some people they are seeing a huge uptick in support for a fair peace as being hoards of Muslims waving the flag of another country. But I suspect they wouldn’t see the same threat if there was a pro Ukrainian march with lots of their flags. for whatever reason. The cross of St George is used by bad people, but don’t slip in to thinking there is some weird english exceptionalism. Every country has a nasty minority that tries to get people to rally behind a flag. You see the english stuff more because that’s where you are. You’d see nasty right wing types on youtube with Welsh flags, or large marches through east Germany with German flags, or Russian flags in Russia if you were looking elsewhere. Personally, my bias is against the union flag. I see one of those, I instantly presume that’s an english person’s garden and he burns stuff on his bbq and has a hot tub that can be seen from the street. Oh completely. As I said about the Muslim counter protests where there were some (very, very few) idiots, scum will be scum regardless of colour or creed. The thing is the flag of St George is used almost exclusively by racists. Not exclusively but very nearly. I see plenty of Welsh flags in Wales but it's a much more joyous thing. This is us kind of message. Also see USA where nearly every house has a flag....I think they're a bit weird actually. But if someone moved down my road and started flying and England flag (outside of a footy tournament or something) It would fill me with absolute dread abut what sort of person they were.......and that just isn't right, but that's were we've got to. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted August 8 VT Supporter Share Posted August 8 5 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: These people are "protesting" against illegal immigration. That would actually be fine, on the face of it. But it's manifesting itself through racist attacks and focusing on things like refugees, who are not illegal immigrants. These people object to brown people. It's as simple as that. Don't let them hide behind "oh it's just my opinion on immigration". Is it ****. This 100%. They're targeting immigration lawyers FFS. Legitimate people going abiut their business helping legal migration. The "illegal" bit is just a red herring. Particularly as the numbers on small boats is minuscule and wouldn't have any effect on the nation whatsoever. These people don't want ANY foreigners at all to arrive. because they're racist from top to bottom. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 The greatest thing about people harping on about "stopping illegal immigration" is that every government has tried to stop it or have policy to reduce it. The Conservatives tried with planes to Rwanda, turning boats back to France, deportation. Blair's Labour tried to stop it with increasing restrictions on appeal rights and making gaining citizenship tougher than it was previously. But those pesky ILLEGAL immigrants just don't listen to the rules! The ILLEGAL people bringing them to shore should have laminated sheets of UK Goverment policy, signed by everyone of those ILLEGAL bastards, just for some sort of due diligence!!! 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post MCU Posted August 8 Popular Post Share Posted August 8 12 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Never said you weren't. I just said it was sad that it's clearly such an extreme minority opinion (despite your delusions that it's the majority) as it's such a hateful one I never said it was. I said the people rioting are racists. And they absolutely are. I completely agree there are scumbags on both sides. But we're specifically talking about the racist scumbags rioting. I'm not burying my head in the sand about anything. The stuff you've popped up in thie thread and moaned about are demonstrably untrue. That's not burying my head, it's looking at evidence and seeing that the stuff you're arguing for is nonsense It's genuine concern. It's sad to see people brainwased into extreme minority opinions. And I mean that about any extreme minority opinion on any side of the political spectrum. I'm sorry about you being called racist, but you are aligning yourself with a racist party and on the side of people participating in racist riots. What do you expect? You know what, I concede… fair enough. I agree with you. Appreciate the explanation and apologise to anyone thinking I’m siding with racists, I’m really not. Just sick of all of the hate.. both sides. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 I said don't understand what the 'protests' are actually about. Is it illegal immigration, is it immigration in general, is it Islam, is it anyone that is not white ? What changes are actually demanded? @MCU maybe you can help with this? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choffer Posted August 8 VT Supporter Share Posted August 8 18 minutes ago, bobzy said: I think that’s probably true, but I don’t think you get riots in the way we’ve seen if “stop the boats” hadn’t been peddled so heavily by the Tories. 100%. I hope that Starmer's evident plan of not making it a headline topic will pay off in the long run and it'll be less of an issue over time. We just need a few weeks of calm and then hopefully it will get back in its box. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_AA_786 Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 So now MCU has been de-radicalised Just back on the topic of marches/riots... in laws have had news that there may some kind of "protest" in Sutton today by Slade Rd. Not trying to peddle false information but sharing for awareness as likely to be F all but may lead to some traffic 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 53 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: I'm not so sure about this , coupled with the clear rise of the right in some European countries I think this could potentially get worse They might not be throwing bricks at the police , attacking immigrants or destroying buildings , but the Police need to publicly charge some of the counter protestors who were running around with knives a bit sharpish or the two tier policing line will run and run and I think that will stoke the flames even more as stream and streams of white people are "made an example of " even at a time when the internet was spreading the lie that a Muslim immigrant had killed 3 children , going on TV and stating publicly to the Muslim communities "we will protect you" , probably sent a few more clearings in the woods onto the street , you and I may understand what he was trying to say , but the click and share brigade don't do context , they do outrage There is a story today that Anti Semitism has hit record highs , I think some sections of society will equate that to Muslims and their regular demos in London rather than Israel's actions in responding to a terror attack on its citizens by killing and starving civilians , but it fans the flames even more The hard core racists are few and almost certainly can't be changed , but those 15 year old scrotes on the street , those outraged by what they read on Facebook , influenced by the bloke down the pub or a WhatsApp post ..I think they can ,they just need to be shown that they aren't the victims in all this . The government have only been in a month so they need time but with a few actions they can pretty much make Reform irrelevant , firstly by be stopping the "uncontrolled immigration" ... As we've seen , the right seem to be partial to Chinese food , so they aren't totally against immigration , more the current perception of an invasion by armies on boats across the channel , stop them ( and don't re-join the EU ) and Reform pretty much cease to exist , and then there isn't airtime for them to spread the division and hate Nah. Next agenda will be that of Tony Robinson's and Britain first - 'The islamisation of the west'. That old chestnut is going away anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted August 8 VT Supporter Share Posted August 8 John O'Malley, 43, after saying how sorry he was and how embarrassed he is about it all sentenced to 32 months as was William Morgan, 69, similarly sorry. Retired welder and grandfather and was only there because of the drink, yet had a truncheon......for his protection. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted August 8 VT Supporter Share Posted August 8 21 minutes ago, MCU said: Just sick of all of the hate.. both sides. Amen to that brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted August 8 Share Posted August 8 11 minutes ago, choffer said: 100%. I hope that Starmer's evident plan of not making it a headline topic will pay off in the long run and it'll be less of an issue over time. We just need a few weeks of calm and then hopefully it will get back in its box. Very true. If media and Tory's hadn't constantly gone on about the boats most of the country would be non the wiser to the issue. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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