ianrobo1 Posted February 4, 2009 Author Share Posted February 4, 2009 CV, my Mrs would get 20% working for a private housing association rather than the council, the pension makes up that defecit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetrees Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 CV, my Mrs would get 20% working for a private housing association rather than the council, the pension makes up that defecit I think that you have inadvertently found a solution to the problem of our bloated public sector. Tell all of the workers that there will be a sensible pension review, in line with the problems faced by workers in the private sector. Then many of them will leave to earn 20% more, thus trimming down the public sector to more manageable proportions. Bingo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarry Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 CV comes up with some interesting points, although his hatred of the public sector does seem to get a little in the way. Of course, he is speaking of Ireland's public sector wages (I think). Speaking personally, as a public sector worker who doesn't have any pension schemes, a 10% hit on my wage could be sustained, only if my rent was dropped by about 20%. And I can't see a private sector landlord wanting to do that. Of course, that's London rents for you. I agree with the comments about greed, though. And it will go full cycle again. Property prices will continue to drop, and lo and behold they will be snapped up once more by the very speculators who started the boom. The rich will get richer once more as they sell/rent to those just/barely able to afford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Public sector are paid FAR more than the private sector. FACT. No disputing that at all. I can dig up reams of articles to state as much. I think you had better get digging, then. It might put the spade you have been using in your previous posts to better use. A big point I need to make. People who are not from Ireland has no frame of reference. Our public sector is completely and utterly different to the British one. Looks like the Public sector won't/can't go on strike because there isn't one ounce of sympathy for the private sector. New record amount of people have become unemployed this month. I got confirmation today of what I expected. 20% pay cut. At least I still have a job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Clarry you are spot on. Let me try to explain the huge anger felt by private sector workers now. In ireland we had a system called benchmarking which was supposed to link public sector pay to private sector. It worked until the recent years of large budget surpluses in which case it has passed the private sector in terms of pay. Also the defined benefit pensions they also had were not a big thing until the recent collapse of private sector defined contribution pensions. So now when our number of unemployed has doubled in a year and people in the private sector take pay cuts, (substantial in my case of 20%), the public sector are asked to share the pain and pay a levy on their pensions of 4-10%. Which they refused to take, now please someone tell me how it's fair that they have powerful Unions to fight for them yet the millions in private sector have nobody to fight for them? One very excellent quote was "how do you benchmark against a P45 (pink slip)". You can't because nobody in Public sector will ever get one. I must stress this has nothing at all to do with British public sector which is totally different to Ireland, they do not have this benchmarking process. Yes I have had a long standing anger at the Public Sector Unions but now the end has come people have looked around to see where all the money has gone. It's gone to certain over paid public servants. Some Public sector workers, in particular the Garda (police) are shockingly under paid while other areas are vastly over paid, why should a starting Central statistics Officer be paid 45,000? for example. It's a big complex mess, but I don't have unfounded anger or allegations. Go read some editorials in the Irish Times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarry Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Thanks for clearing that up CVB and very interesting stuff. Budget surpluses in the council I work for are not known. Ever. In fact my boss often raises 20 to 30,000 each year from research bodies for our work and is not allowed to keep it at the year end for emergencies (never on our salaries). It goes into the coffers for budget ****-ups going back to the 80s. Sounds like a complex mess and sounds like it will cause a lot of friction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Problem was our budget surpluses came from stamp duty on property sales, money that was never sustainable and was bound to end at some point. The scale of our public finances mess is astonishing. Governmet had budgeted for 60bln in tax and only took in 40bln. That is a substantial hole, how on earth could it be tackled without touching anyones pay in the public sector? We need to bring that 60bln figure down by pay and spending cuts and bring that 40bln figure up by broadening the tax base. We're going to need to borrown 15bln this year just to survive. It's a catastrophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Have a read of this to explain with more coherence and accuracy than I can about Public Private pay gap in Ireland. http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1015576.shtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Have a read of this to explain with more coherence and accuracy than I can about Public Private pay gap in Ireland. http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1015576.shtml Interesting article - though I see that it ends its second para with 'the greatest fraud in the history of the State'. So it rather sets its stall out as an article that may not necessarily be looking at the facts in a disinterested manner. Twice the article quotes the following 'This differential would be difficult to justify in normal economic circumstances' just to reinforce the message. Though there was specific comment about senior public servants versus their private sector counterparts, there was remarkably little in detail about other levels apart from comparison 'controlling for the influence of education, experience, gender, and occupation'. In effect meaning that lots of researchers were standing in rooms with their index fingers in the air. Now that may well be the basis of the benchmarking scheme, also, but it does seem to have some flaws in terms of the worth of the comparison. With whom are they comparing nurses pay? With whom are they comparing the pay of teachers? Is it just on the basis of education, experience, &c.? Is it a comparison to the same jobs in the private sector? Does this pay gap not demonstrate a big failing in the private sector with reference to pay? Why, with this gap and all the lovely benefits that a public sector worker has, has there not been a constant flood to the public sector? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HolteExile Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 This is the biggest load of rubbish I've ever read. What, moreso than this gem: **** the teachers, they earn a **** fortune for doing half a years work. Straight out of College a teacher starts on 37,000 Google all you like, if you provide examples like above it's clear you can selectively source articles to tell you what you want to hear, to fit your narrow viewpoint. As such, I can't take anything else you say seriously. Public sector workers -indeed most who work for not for profit organisations- have less earning potential than others in the private sector. I'm not a teacher, yet I (and I'm sure the vast majority of people) know this to be true. It's hardly a revelation. You could of course compare examples of, say teachers and someone poorly paid in an entry level job in the private sector. But that isn't a like for like comparison. Most teachers don't do the job for the money. It's a vocation and has always been one of the worst paid of the professions, bearing in mind the level of training and qualifications required. There will be cuts across the board, that will be the reality and no-one will go unscathed. Teachers, butchers, bakers, candlestick makers. But this : **** the teachers, they earn a **** fortune Is mindless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I just googled public private pay gap and got that finfacts. But papers have been full of facts and opinions on the whole matter. Can I ask do you currently live in Ireland HolteExile? As for **** the teachers. I mean I'm fed up with people bringing up teachers and Nurses to defend their arguements about the Public Sector. They are a small portion of the sector. Nobody bring out a civil servant in from the Dept of Agriculture or a middle manager in the HSE. The simple fact is teachers work far less hours and get amazing holidays yet get paid a very good wage, more than in other countries. Just because you're a teacher doesn't mean you're some kind of saint, I have plenty of friends who are primary teachers and are in it for the excellent holidays and easy working hours. They're no saints. They have it pretty handy actually. Per hour they are paid a very large sum that is for sure. I shall always be of the opinion that people knew what the job they applied for was and how much it paid. Once you get the job it's unfair to get a powerful union to go and get you more money. Nobody has that option in the private sector. If you want more money get promoted. If you can't in the Public Sector you should have worked in the private sector where your hard work would be rewarded with a promotion. One thing is for certain there will be zero public support for any industrial action by public sector workers so it will not happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 look at it this way, if a company takes in less money and is infinancial trouble it will have to lay off staff or bring in pay cuts. The same thing is happening with the Government finances and pay cuts for workers is a necessity. Only difference is the Uions rule thing country and can fight tooth and nail for theirmembers. The workers in the Private Sector dont. They just take it on the chin as there is nothing they can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 The simple fact is teachers work far less hours and get amazing holidays yet get paid a very good wage, more than in other countries. Just because you're a teacher doesn't mean you're some kind of saint, I have plenty of friends who are primary teachers and are in it for the excellent holidays and easy working hours. They're no saints. They have it pretty handy actually. Per hour they are paid a very large sum that is for sure. Yep, I know loads like that, too. I also know that one is unlikely to ever learn much (apart from the very odd exception) without any basic grounding in education. One could say that the very foundation of the private sector is this primary schooling. I shall always be of the opinion that people knew what the job they applied for was and how much it paid. Once you get the job it's unfair to get a powerful union to go and get you more money. Nobody has that option in the private sector. If you want more money get promoted. If you can't in the Public Sector you should have worked in the private sector where your hard work would be rewarded with a promotion. So what you are basically saying is that anyone who goes into the public sector should never expect a pay increase as that is something that should only be available to private sector workers via promotion? It appears that the fury directed at public sector workers in Ireland by their private sector counterparts is mostly displacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Bailed-out Royal Bank of Scotland bankers set for millions in bonuses The troubled Royal Bank of Scotland, rescued with £20 billion of public money, is planning large bonuses for thousands of its City traders and senior bankers, The Times has learnt. The proposed payments are expected to reach tens of millions of pounds — possibly hundreds of millions — with some star bankers in line for six-figure payouts. UK Financial Investments (UKFI), the Treasury-run body that holds the Government’s RBS stake, is understood to have given its blessing in principle to limited payments, although it has yet to see the details. “There’s no blanket objection to bonuses, but they are subjecting them to intense scrutiny,” said one well-placed source. “The [bonus] numbers will be very large and very difficult for the general public to understand.” The investment banking arm of RBS, a division known as global banking and markets (GBM), paid out £1.83 billion in remuneration for 2007, most of which is thought to have been bonuses. Although the proposed payments will be sharply lower this time, RBS still plans to make payments. ...more on link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviramsey Posted February 5, 2009 VT Supporter Share Posted February 5, 2009 I can see the logic of paying out some of the bonuses: there are some bankers who are making money for the banks, and without large bonuses they're apt to leave for non-nationalized banks... which would eventually leave the government's stake worthless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [ So what you are basically saying is that anyone who goes into the public sector should never expect a pay increase as that is something that should only be available to private sector workers via promotion? No I think people should get pay increases in their jobs but not via Union talks directly with the Government. It's unfair and has just served to widen the public private pay gap and increases resentment between the two sectors. The Public Sector Unions have had the Government over barrels, every budget surplus we had they wanted for their workers without any Public Sector reform. I don't agree in blanket pay rises, I believe people who deserve them should get them and lazy workers who don't pull their weight should not benefit. Personally I'd rather performance related bonuses so that good workers are rewarded and those dead weight workers who give the sector a bad name are not rewarded. My main beef with anyone in this world is I hate lazy people who don't try their best, who leech off the hard work of others. That is where my problem with the Public Sector comes from, people getting my tax money because of the bargaining of Unions and threat of industrial action rather than through hard work and improved services. I have never taken a sick day in my life, I never come to work late, I've never asked for a pay increase, I've never asked for anything. My hard work is rewarded by my employer and I just wish everywhere was like that to at least some degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 I can see the logic of paying out some of the bonuses: there are some bankers who are making money for the banks, and without large bonuses they're apt to leave for non-nationalized banks... which would eventually leave the government's stake worthless. People think bonuses are evil and should not be paid to these banker becuase they got us into this mess etc... Totally unfair. Bonuses are contractual and are there to reward hard work. Back office workers who do the same job regardless of the economic situation deserve their bonuses and bonuses are there to reward the staff on their efforts that year. Bonuses to executives are wrong considering it's their fault the banks are in trouble. But saying ordinary workers should take a pay cut is wrong. Bonuses are contractual, they are paid if you meet goals and are there to incentivise people to do their best. It's a system that should be applauded and implemented everywhere to reward hard work. I despise the stigmatisation of the work bonus. It's a person salary nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gringo Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Only difference is the Uions rule thing country and can fight tooth and nail for theirmembers. The workers in the Private Sector dont. They just take it on the chin as there is nothing they can do.Nothing? Are private sector banned from joining unions? No. Well looks like that's where your problem is. If the workers don't get organised they get fkd over. And the ones that get fkd over point at the ones that get organised and howl 'not fair'. Same argument over state pensions has been going in the UK for the past 3 years, all because the private sector workers meekly gave up their pension rights whilst the public sector decided not to be pussies and fought to keep the rights they had been promised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gringo Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 People think bonuses are evil and should not be paid to these banker becuase they got us into this mess etc... Totally unfair. Bonuses are contractual and are there to reward hard work. Back office workers who do the same job regardless of the economic situation deserve their bonuses and bonuses are there to reward the staff on their efforts that year. So you haven't actually had a 20% pay cut, you've just had your bonus stopped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Nothing? Are private sector banned from joining unions? No. Well looks like that's where your problem is. If the workers don't get organised they get fkd over. And the ones that get fkd over point at the ones that get organised and howl 'not fair'. Same argument over state pensions has been going in the UK for the past 3 years, all because the private sector workers meekly gave up their pension rights whilst the public sector decided not to be pussies and fought to keep the rights they had been promised. Amen to that - I remember a certain "Iron Lady" who wanted to smash the Unions.................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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