peterms Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 You seem to be confusing the terms 'deficit' and 'debt'. I did say the deficit was not high in historical terms - that should be debt, which may be what you mean. The point stands - neither are a concern. I mention both because the concern of those who fret about the deficit is that it increases the debt - unless they are in the camp that seems to think a government deficit is some sort of moral failing. I think the deficit is too low, not too high, and the debt is pretty unremarkable in historical context. What is your concern about the deficit? Is it because you think it means we incur debts which can't be repaid? Or because you think we should operate the national economy like a household budget? Or what? Do you think we can and should reduce the deficit when the private sector is saving, and if so, why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Very good posts Peter. Unfortunately your pissing in the wind with the Tory supporters. They have been brainwashed. Simple truth is that what the tories are doing is idealogical and has next to **** all to do with the deficit. That was just a convenient line to spout to those stupid enough to believe it of which thankfully there are less and less with each passing day as the reality of what they have done, and continue to do, bites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Very good posts Peter. Unfortunately your pissing in the wind with the Tory supporters. They have been brainwashed. Simple truth is that what the tories are doing is idealogical and has next to **** all to do with the deficit. That was just a convenient line to spout to those stupid enough to believe it of which thankfully there are less and less with each passing day as the reality of what they have done, and continue to do, bites.I personally don't believe it's idealogical, but even if it was, so what? What matters is that the right thing is being done, and IMO it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAFC2000 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I personally don't believe it's idealogical, but even if it was, so what? What matters is that the right thing is being done, and IMO it is. So what...? 2.5 million unemployed your Ok with that....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Tory motto - I'm aright Jack so **** those less fortunate. I consider myself to have been lucky through all this having still got a good job, my wife still having a very good job and having maintained a good standard of living for us and our children. However having seen tens of people lose their jobs and really struggling has cut me deep and I just can't sign up to the Tory I'm aright Jack attitude and that to have people losing their jobs, the cuts to essential public services and stinging those with the least and most vulnerable is a price worth paying. It never has been and it never will be. The fact they have spouted it is unavoidable in the belief that non Tory supporters will believe them is an insult to anyone with an ounce of intelligence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I personally don't believe it's idealogical, but even if it was, so what? What matters is that the right thing is being done, and IMO it is. So what...? 2.5 million unemployed your Ok with that....? How many people were unemployed before the election? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colhint Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 2.57m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Tory motto - I'm aright Jack so **** those less fortunate. I consider myself to have been lucky through all this having still got a good job, my wife still having a very good job and having maintained a good standard of living for us and our children. However having seen tens of people lose their jobs and really struggling has cut me deep and I just can't sign up to the Tory I'm aright Jack attitude and that to have people losing their jobs, the cuts to essential public services and stinging those with the least and most vulnerable is a price worth paying. It never has been and it never will be. The fact they have spouted it is unavoidable in the belief that non Tory supporters will believe them is an insult to anyone with an ounce of intelligence.So what is the alternative to cutting public spending then? I'm still waiting for Ed Milliband and his clueless band of fools to come up with a credible alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I personally don't believe it's idealogical, but even if it was, so what? What matters is that the right thing is being done, and IMO it is. Why it matters is because the (relatively) poor are being shat on, to benefit the already rich. It's not about "saving the economy" or any such bullshit. Rid yourself of those ideological blinkers. Don't swallow what the media tell you - they are either owned by, in hock to, or terrorised by, the forces of capital. Make up your own mind, instead of repeating what you hear most loudly and repeated most often. Look around you. People who paid into a pension all their lives are being swindled. Older people can't pay their bills, and are choosing between food and fuel - and as we heard only this week, thousands are dying as a direct consequence of utilities charges being so high. Young people are choosing between unemployment and taking on massive debt to study. It also matters because the economic policies being followed are counterproductive, and known to be so. In any other walk of life this would be grounds for civil action. It's the exact opposite of the right thing being done. It creates needless unemployment, waste, and poverty. It is being used by Cameron et al to discipline the working class (and middle class), in much the same way as Greece has just voted though measures against collective bargaining - won't do anything for the economy, but will help some individual capitalists make a few quid more at the expense of their staff. Which in turn brings them onside to argue for a bailout of massively wealthy investors at the expense of everyone else, like buying many lottery tickets and expecting others to pay the stake if you lose, but you keep the gains if you win. These governments are on a par with Gaddafi and Ceaucescu, just a little more subtle in how they work the levers of power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Tory motto - I'm aright Jack so **** those less fortunate. I consider myself to have been lucky through all this having still got a good job, my wife still having a very good job and having maintained a good standard of living for us and our children. However having seen tens of people lose their jobs and really struggling has cut me deep and I just can't sign up to the Tory I'm aright Jack attitude and that to have people losing their jobs, the cuts to essential public services and stinging those with the least and most vulnerable is a price worth paying. It never has been and it never will be. The fact they have spouted it is unavoidable in the belief that non Tory supporters will believe them is an insult to anyone with an ounce of intelligence.So what is the alternative to cutting public spending then? I'm still waiting for Ed Milliband and his clueless band of fools to come up with a credible alternative. Increasing public spending. You won't hear it from Miliband, as his party has long been captured by the forces of evil. Perhaps the greatest triumph of the popular press in this country is that so many people are convinced that public spending is bad, and deficits are bad, without being able to explain why this is or why they hold this belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Tory motto - I'm aright Jack so **** those less fortunate. I consider myself to have been lucky through all this having still got a good job, my wife still having a very good job and having maintained a good standard of living for us and our children. However having seen tens of people lose their jobs and really struggling has cut me deep and I just can't sign up to the Tory I'm aright Jack attitude and that to have people losing their jobs, the cuts to essential public services and stinging those with the least and most vulnerable is a price worth paying. It never has been and it never will be. The fact they have spouted it is unavoidable in the belief that non Tory supporters will believe them is an insult to anyone with an ounce of intelligence.So what is the alternative to cutting public spending then? I'm still waiting for Ed Milliband and his clueless band of fools to come up with a credible alternative. Increasing public spending. You won't hear it from Miliband, as his party has long been captured by the forces of evil. Perhaps the greatest triumph of the popular press in this country is that so many people are convinced that public spending is bad, and deficits are bad, without being able to explain why this is or why they hold this belief.That's not really a credible alternative. Increasing public spending now will only mean bigger cuts in the future. You could also argue that certain sections of the press have been able to convince a large number of people that debt is harmless and that throwing money at problems can suddenly make them disappear. It works both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 and as we heard only this week, thousands are dying as a direct consequence of utilities charges being so high your statement suggests that this is something new which is rather misleading ... the biggest hike in fuel bills was between Oct 07 and Oct 08 where the average bill went up from £865 to £1215 but that probably doesn't fit the idealogical line so is ignored ?? for me the worse part of all the high bills is "Green taxes designed to meet a £200billion bill to switch to wind, wave, solar and nuclear power currently add around £100 to annual bills" yet more "green "stealth taxes that almost certainly wont get used where they are meant to and shouldn't be passed onto the consumer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 I don't actually think that peterms understands the difference between deficit and debt, as shown by his statement that the deficit isn't unusually high. If it isn't, I'd be interested to see when it was previously this bad. Repeating a load of ill thought out nonsense from left wing blogs isn't going to convince anybody of anything, let alone that the deficit needs to get bigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 the biggest hike in fuel bills was between Oct 07 and Oct 08 where the average bill went up from £865 to £1215 If one is going to talk about the effects upon a specific group of consumers then perhaps it's not the most sensible thing to look at the overall average. Even when doing so, to compare a delta in the average price and a delta in the number of deaths of pensioners in winter months is, at the least, crude if not of no use. Surely one would have to look at trends of both, at the price elasticity of gas and electricity and at the harshness of each respective winter? On top of that, it might then be an idea to look at the delta in the proportion of the fixed, low income of those pensioners which was needed to be spent on gas and electricity rather than any absolute number or change in energy charges on their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 [so what is the alternative to cutting public spending then? I'd propose slowing the pace of paying off the deficit and also those that can afford to should pay more. I'm not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination but I'd be happy for both me and my wife to pay an extra 5% in income tax if it means someone else can keep their job, a child is kept out of poverty, a pensioner doesn't have to make a choice between going hungry or cold this winter, an operation can be undertaken quicker potentially saving someone's life, a disabled person doesn't have their benefits cut, public services are maintained to or brought up to a high standard. I can't stand to see those most vulnerable being hit the hardest and no one with any morals should be. The gap is widening between the haves and have nots and society needs to be put on a more even keel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 [so what is the alternative to cutting public spending then? I'd propose slowing the pace of paying off the deficit and also those that can afford to should pay more. I'm not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination but I'd be happy for both me and my wife to pay an extra 5% in income tax if it means someone else can keep their job, a child is kept out of poverty, a pensioner doesn't have to make a choice between going hungry or cold this winter, an operation can be undertaken quicker potentially saving someone's life, a disabled person doesn't have their benefits cut, public services are maintained to or brought up to a high standard. I can't stand to see those most vulnerable being hit the hardest and no one with any morals should be. The gap is widening between the haves an have nots and society needs to be put on a more even keel. That 5% would probably be pissed up the wall on some shit PFI waste of money. I'd rather pay 5% less and employ somebody extra as a result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAFC2000 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 I personally don't believe it's idealogical, but even if it was, so what? What matters is that the right thing is being done, and IMO it is. So what...? 2.5 million unemployed your Ok with that....? How many people were unemployed before the election? Not 2.5 million people thats for sure...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAFC2000 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Tory motto - I'm aright Jack so **** those less fortunate. I consider myself to have been lucky through all this having still got a good job, my wife still having a very good job and having maintained a good standard of living for us and our children. However having seen tens of people lose their jobs and really struggling has cut me deep and I just can't sign up to the Tory I'm aright Jack attitude and that to have people losing their jobs, the cuts to essential public services and stinging those with the least and most vulnerable is a price worth paying. It never has been and it never will be. The fact they have spouted it is unavoidable in the belief that non Tory supporters will believe them is an insult to anyone with an ounce of intelligence.So what is the alternative to cutting public spending then? I'm still waiting for Ed Milliband and his clueless band of fools to come up with a credible alternative. The deficit = £180bn" "Tax avoidance by the super-rich = Worth £100bn PER YEAR" "Trident = £100bn (according to Clegg) " "You sure theres no alternative"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAFC2000 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Tory motto - I'm aright Jack so **** those less fortunate. I consider myself to have been lucky through all this having still got a good job, my wife still having a very good job and having maintained a good standard of living for us and our children. However having seen tens of people lose their jobs and really struggling has cut me deep and I just can't sign up to the Tory I'm aright Jack attitude and that to have people losing their jobs, the cuts to essential public services and stinging those with the least and most vulnerable is a price worth paying. It never has been and it never will be. The fact they have spouted it is unavoidable in the belief that non Tory supporters will believe them is an insult to anyone with an ounce of intelligence.So what is the alternative to cutting public spending then? I'm still waiting for Ed Milliband and his clueless band of fools to come up with a credible alternative. The deficit = £180bn" "Tax avoidance by the super-rich = Worth £100bn PER YEAR" "Trident = £100bn (according to Clegg) " "You sure theres no alternative"? Dave says to Gideon. " Gideon we cant possibly get back all the tax from our chums can we, IT WOULD SOLVE A LOT OF PROBLEMS" " No Dave - these friends we have to look out for our them, they have donated millions of pounds to our party" " Yes lets the ordinary folk pay for their mess and we will just blame it on Labour even though we committed to their spending plans untill 2010, we will have the tabloids on our side we will get them to do our dirty work for us" Right more importantLY back to our champagne and truffles in Italy and please interrupt me for something much more important that the future of the country next time. TA DI HO...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 That 5% would probably be pissed up the wall on some shit PFI waste of money. I'd rather pay 5% less and employ somebody extra as a result. That '5%' would probably be pissed up the wall on the balance sheet and not actually invested in the economy, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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