Testosterone, intersex and women's sport

[ml1dch]

1 hour ago, Demitri_C said:

As i expected you wouldnt understand it  just stay in your villatalk bubble.

I come from a family of boxers so i know the blood sweat and tears they have gone through. They do it for more than " getting hit the face" e.g follow their fathers footsteps. You have no idea what they go through with all the sacrifices and toll it takes on their body.

I imagine the brains of those who come from a family of boxers probably take a pretty solid pounding with all those punches to the head as well as their bodies.

[Lichfield Dean]

The problem I have with this is not that boxers with a hugely unfair advantage should be allowed to fight (because I agree it could be potentially dangerous) but that in this case none of the facts seem to add up. I've seen many people say Khelif isn't a particularly hard hitter in women's boxing, could she have just got in a lucky couple of punches, she isn't massively successful at all, there doesn't seem to be much other than the dubious IBA ban and the Italian boxer has said she wants to apologise.

There just seems to be a lot of things that don't add up here.

I'd be interested in the testosterone results as well - one test that showed "raised" levels? When? By how much? Was there another explanation?

(Edit: since posting this I've realised that the test in question didn't even seemingly test for raised testosterone at all.)

There's just a lot to unpack here and I think it's a shame so many people have jumped onto Khelif's back here when the situation seems anything but clear to me.

Edited August 2 by Lichfield Dean

[KentVillan]

1 hour ago, foreveryoung said:

Possibly not. It's intense training which can increases testoserone levels, not because they box.

That’s one thing that can increase testosterone levels, yes, but each individual human being also has their own natural base levels of different hormones. We’re all born different. Testosterone has a remarkable correlation with strength and competitiveness (and some negative stuff, too).

Sports in general (even stuff like chess and snooker) tend to over-index on testosterone.

[Kuwabatake Sanjuro]

That is some useful background into the Khelif situation and checks out from what I've read so far.

I've taken note of the people on here who deliberately misgendered her and I hope that if ye have any children that they grow up to be SHA fans.

 

[choffer]

20 minutes ago, Kuwabatake Sanjuro said:

That is some useful background into the Khelif situation and checks out from what I've read so far.

I've taken note of the people on here who deliberately misgendered her and I hope that if ye have any children that they grow up to be SHA fans.

 

Yet there will be many who continue to peddle the line that she is a man. If all that you’ve quoted is true, it appears to be just another confected culture war. 
And the usual people will bite and we go round again. 
We are doomed. 

[Seat68]

27 minutes ago, Kuwabatake Sanjuro said:

That is some useful background into the Khelif situation and checks out from what I've read so far.

I've taken note of the people on here who deliberately misgendered her and I hope that if ye have any children that they grow up to be SHA fans.

 

I feel that the voices in this thread who are “experts” will either ignore this or discount it. 

[Lichfield Dean]

25 minutes ago, Kuwabatake Sanjuro said:

That is some useful background into the Khelif situation and checks out from what I've read so far.

I've taken note of the people on here who deliberately misgendered her and I hope that if ye have any children that they grow up to be SHA fans.

 

Yep, I just posted in the Olympics thread this quite from the IBA:

 

Quote

Point to note, the athletes did not undergo a testosterone examination but were subject to a separate and recognized test, whereby the specifics remain confidential. This test conclusively indicated that both athletes did not meet the required necessary eligibility criteria and were found to have competitive advantages over other female competitors.

https://www.iba.sport/news/statement-made-by-the-international-boxing-association-regarding-athletes-disqualifications-in-world-boxing-championships-2023/

I cannot find any actual evidence of high testosterone levels, yet some guy at work today claims she failed multiple tests with testosterone levels "through the roof"

[Keyblade]

1 hour ago, Lichfield Dean said:

The problem I have with this is not that boxers with a hugely unfair advantage should be allowed to fight (because I agree it could be potentially dangerous) but that in this case none of the facts seem to add up. I've seen many people say Khelif isn't a particularly hard hitter in women's boxing, could she have just got in a lucky couple of punches, she isn't massively successful at all, there doesn't seem to be much other than the dubious IBA ban and the Italian boxer has said she wants to apologise.

There just seems to be a lot of things that don't add up here.

I'd be interested in the testosterone results as well - one test that showed "raised" levels? When? By how much? Was there another explanation?

There's just a lot to unpack here and I think it's a shame so many people have jumped onto Khelif's back here when the situation seems anything but clear to me.

That's the issue I was alluding to earlier. It's so exhausting trying to understand situations because of how muddied the waters are with culture war BS. Wasn't helped by the Italian lass and her tears. You got punched really hard? At the Olympics? Say it ain't so! She has to take some responsibility by the backlash this woman is facing.

[NurembergVillan]

4 hours ago, foreveryoung said:

Size dies not really give you an advantage in boxing, unless you have the skill and the fittness to match. Re: Mike Tyson, Usyk.

So what are we saying then? If size and genetic make-up isn't the be all and end all (and it clearly isn't) what's the supposed issue with Khelif?

[StefanAVFC]

teehee

[fruitvilla]

OK ... if anyone is interested in the science behind this current kerfuffle, then here is a blog post from a classic liberal point of view. If we are on the left of the liberal point of view it may not be for you.

Olympic boxing and disorders of sex development – Why Evolution Is True

Here Jerry Coyne is quoting Carole Hooven

Quote

Athletes with XY DSDs who have testes (usually internal), XY sex chromosomes, male-typical levels of testosterone, and functional androgen receptors are often described as females with “hyperandrogenism,” i.e., abnormally high levels of testosterone. They experience physical benefits of this high testosterone during puberty, which translate into athletic advantages over females. The issue for sports is that athletes with the XY DSD 5-alpha reductase deficiency (5-ARD), may be socialized as female, may be legally female, and may live and identify as female; but they are male.

And another excerpt where he answers how this thorny issue might be dealt with:
e.) How should sports organizations determine if someone has a sex-based athletic advantage? Ideally, it should be a three-part test. First, are there testes or ovaries? If there are testes, that’s already a sign of male advantage, particularly when accompanied by an XY karyotype.  Further tests can examine testosterone levels and exposure as well as sequencing of the DNA to see if there are genetic mutations causing DSDs. But there’s already enough information from Khelif’s obvious athletic advantages and his XY karyotype to mandate banning him/her from boxing until these other issues are examined.

Edited August 2 by fruitvilla

[Panto_Villan]

5 hours ago, Keyblade said:

I think I worded this wrong. I wasn't giving my opinion on the gender spectrum, but speaking from the perspective of the Olympic games. As far as the Olympics are concerned, you are either a man or woman and compete in the respective categories. Unless I'm wrong and there are unisex or non binary events?

My point was, if you satisfy the conditions for being a woman (which I appreciate is under scrutiny), and testosterone levels are within an acceptable range, what does it matter if you are intersex? You can be a woman (or man) without DSD with naturally elevated testosterone levels, as exceedingly rare as that is.

Isn't the Olympics about displaying and celebrating extraordinary and often bewildering physical talent? Michael Phelps for example essentially had gills and giant flippers, which gave him a leg (fin?) up on everyone. LeBron James is 40 years old and still physically dominating guys half his age in the Olympics. As long as nobody is artificially enhanced, it's all fair game imo.

Fair enough. I think we actually agree on most (or maybe all) of this then. I also wouldn't disqualify an intersex person if they were still within the expected female bounds for things like testosterone levels, nor would I disqualify a female competitor if she had unsually high testosterone levels for non-intersex reasons. In the first case they're not actually gaining an advantage, and in the second case they're just a genetic freak in the same way many of the most successful Olympians are.

However, I would disqualify a competitor from female competition if they had unusually high testosterone levels as a result of being intersex, even if they weren't particularly dominant in their chosen sport, because they would be gaining an unfair advantage due to having male sexual traits. Guarding against that is the entire point of female sporting categories, at least in my opinion.

[Chindie]

50 minutes ago, fruitvilla said:

OK ... if anyone is interested in the science behind this current kerfuffle, then here is a blog post from a classic liberal point of view. If we are on the left of the liberal point of view it may not be for you.

Olympic boxing and disorders of sex development – Why Evolution Is True

Here Jerry Coyne is quoting Carole Hooven

And another excerpt where he answers how this thorny issue might be dealt with:
e.) How should sports organizations determine if someone has a sex-based athletic advantage? Ideally, it should be a three-part test. First, are there testes or ovaries? If there are testes, that’s already a sign of male advantage, particularly when accompanied by an XY karyotype.  Further tests can examine testosterone levels and exposure as well as sequencing of the DNA to see if there are genetic mutations causing DSDs. But there’s already enough information from Khelif’s obvious athletic advantages and his XY karyotype to mandate banning him/her from boxing until these other issues are examined.

This is interesting from the perspective of a possible science outcome, it's wrong in it assuming rather a lot. It assumes it knows what Khelif's situation is and goes from there. It may be right, but we don't know what (if anything) Khelif's condition is and it's wrong to portray an assumption as fact. 

[Lichfield Dean]

2 minutes ago, Chindie said:

This is interesting from the perspective of a possible science outcome, it's wrong in it assuming rather a lot. It assumes it knows what Khelif's situation is and goes from there. It may be right, but we don't know what (if anything) Khelif's condition is and it's wrong to portray an assumption as fact. 

Yeah, it seems to be starting with a conclusion (that Khelif is a man) and working backwards. It even says "such and such thinks that Khelif" has a particular condition as the crux of the argument and constantly refers to her as "him" like it's a forgone conclusion.

It may be right it may not be. The results of any tests just haven't been released. How can any conclusion be drawn?

[fruitvilla]

2 minutes ago, Chindie said:

This is interesting from the perspective of a possible science outcome, it's wrong in it assuming rather a lot. It assumes it knows what Khelif's situation is and goes from there. It may be right, but we don't know what (if anything) Khelif's condition is and it's wrong to portray an assumption as fact. 

Essentially I agree, I was not convinced completely. But given Khelif's karyotype what odds would you give me that Khelif has testes?

[Chindie]

Just now, fruitvilla said:

Essentially I agree, I was not convinced completely. But given Khelif's karyotype what odds would you give me that Khelif has testes?

To my knowledge we don't actually know what Khelif's karyotype is. That's the problem.

[fruitvilla]

9 minutes ago, Lichfield Dean said:

It may be right it may not be. The results of any tests just haven't been released. How can any conclusion be drawn?

The salient point

Quote

All evidence points to “yes”, and my judgment was based on the fact that Khelif had an XY karyotype, the physical appearance and size of a man, and had previously failed testosterone tests

and

Quote

Now the only way to ascertain for sure what Khelif’s sex was is to do an ultrasound or some kind of noninvasive examination to see if there are ovaries (making a female) or testes (making a male) or both (making a very rare hermaphrodite).  This hasn’t been done, but the conclusion of those with more expertise than I is that it’s probable ...

 

[Panto_Villan]

1 minute ago, fruitvilla said:

The salient point

and

 

But has she failed testerone tests? Or is it, as has been posted above, that a dubious Russian organisation sanctioned her for unclear reasons after she beat a Russian athlete in a competition?

[Lichfield Dean]

2 minutes ago, fruitvilla said:

The salient point

and

 

What previously failed testosterone tests?

[fruitvilla]

20 minutes ago, Chindie said:

To my knowledge we don't actually know what Khelif's karyotype is. That's the problem.

That is fair enough ... the XY karyotype claim is a little apocryphal (but not completely). But that should improve the odds for your bet.