Testosterone, intersex and women's sport

[tonyh29]

1 minute ago, foreveryoung said:

Ohh my goodness, the lengths some people will blag for defence.

You'd be a amazing defence lawyer. You wouldn't win f*** all mind 

 you've got your views and are happy to share them  , right or wrong  (mostly wrong fwiw  )  but make your case and try to win the argument  ,  Stefan's ability as a trial lawyer isn't the subject  .. 

 

[foreveryoung]

1 hour ago, KentVillan said:

Unusual levels of testosterone compared with the general population are present across elite sport. It’s not just doping. Sport selects for outliers.

And the idea that it’s dangerous for her to compete seems illogical if she is getting beaten by other women (apparently 9 other women have beaten her in her career). What makes her more dangerous than those other 9 women?

I find the behaviour from the Italian boxer strange and premeditated, designed to play into the controversy. Boxing is a dangerous and painful sport. It’s not credible that she takes one decent punch from the Algerian and that is a completely unprecedented experience for her as a boxer. She’s being disingenuous.

I agree the way the Italian conceded she didnt do herself any favours. But when you have other high profile female boxers come out and say they wouldn't fight her, I tend to believe them, rather than a few on VT just trying to protect Khalifs human rights.

[Demitri_C]

10 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

I agree the way the Italian conceded she didnt do herself any favours. But when you have other high profile female boxers come out and say they wouldn't fight her, I tend to believe them, rather than a few on VT just trying to protect Khalifs human rights.

Didnt clarissa shields speak against it? She didnt specify names but highlighted  about the safety of women.

I dont care what catergory they fight in as long as all women are kept safe. Thats what important.  Fighters safety

[foreveryoung]

On 02/08/2024 at 11:17, Demitri_C said:

Didnt clarissa shields speak against it? She didnt specify names but highlighted  about the safety of women.

I dont care what catergory they fight in as long as all women are kept safe. Thats what important.  Fighters safety

Olympics 2024: Imane Khelif who failed gender eligibility test at World Championships wins bout after opponent quits | Boxing News | Sky Sports

Quote

'The IBA had their eligibility rules for testosterone levels, so a sex test, and Khelif had raised levels of testosterone, which did not enter in their eligibility criteria, so she was not allowed to compete".

Like you I'm looking at it from a boxing point if view. Some will just look at it from a human rights, gender point of view.

Edited August 3 by blandy
link added

[ml1dch]

3 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

I dont care what catergory they fight in as long as all women are kept safe. Thats what important.  Fighters safety

One of the easier ways to keep safe would be opt for a sport which doesn't involve you being punched in the face all the time.

[Demitri_C]

3 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

One of the easier ways to keep safe would be opt for a sport which doesn't involve you being punched in the face all the time.

So you are in favour of men vs women boxing "as they can get punched in the face in this sport" ?

Let them all just hurt each other because they chose to box

Have you ever been in a boxing ring ?

Edited August 2 by Demitri_C

[LondonLax]

5 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

'The IBA had their eligibility rules for testosterone levels, so a sex test, and Khelif had raised levels of testosterone, which did not enter in their eligibility criteria, so she was not allowed to compete".

Like you I'm looking at it from a boxing point if view. Some will just look at it from a human rights, gender point of view.

The IBA statement released a couple of days ago says they never tested her testosterone levels. It is quite murky what has actually happened. 

Quote

Point to note, the athletes did not undergo a testosterone examination but were subject to a separate and recognized test, whereby the specifics remain confidential.

https://www.iba.sport/news/statement-made-by-the-international-boxing-association-regarding-athletes-disqualifications-in-world-boxing-championships-2023/

[KentVillan]

18 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

I agree the way the Italian conceded she didnt do herself any favours. But when you have other high profile female boxers come out and say they wouldn't fight her, I tend to believe them, rather than a few on VT just trying to protect Khalifs human rights.

You have no idea if Khalif is a man though, or what her condition is. It’s all speculation. That’s why people are defending her, not because we believe men have the right to knock out women in a boxing ring.

I would hazard a guess that *all* of the women in the Olympic boxing competition have higher testosterone levels than your average woman in the street.

[blandy]

16 hours ago, foreveryoung said:

drugs that uncrease it are banned

Iron supplements?

[ml1dch]

4 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

Have you ever been in a boxing ring ?

Of course not. If I wanted to be punched in the face I'd just show up in one of your no-go areas.

[Keyblade]

5 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

I think this is part of the problem. There are many commentators that have decided she’s not like them, but then insisting the world is simple and binary, so she’s a he by default.

The evidence before people’s eyes isn’t convincing these people there is, in a vanishingly small number of people, nuance beyond their bloke or bird simple lives.

I guess the only thing to do is gather up the pitchforks and torches and drive the outlier out of the (Olympic) village.

 

5 hours ago, Panto_Villan said:

This isn't true though. It's not true with regards to gender (non-binary people say hello), and the existence of intersex people means it's not true biologically either. 

If she did happen to be intersex then she could identify as female but still not actually be biologically female - I mean, that's exactly what being intersex means, isn't it?

I think I worded this wrong. I wasn't giving my opinion on the gender spectrum, but speaking from the perspective of the Olympic games. As far as the Olympics are concerned, you are either a man or woman and compete in the respective categories. Unless I'm wrong and there are unisex or non binary events?

My point was, if you satisfy the conditions for being a woman (which I appreciate is under scrutiny), and testosterone levels are within an acceptable range, what does it matter if you are intersex? You can be a woman (or man) without DSD with naturally elevated testosterone levels, as exceedingly rare as that is.

Isn't the Olympics about displaying and celebrating extraordinary and often bewildering physical talent? Michael Phelps for example essentially had gills and giant flippers, which gave him a leg (fin?) up on everyone. LeBron James is 40 years old and still physically dominating guys half his age in the Olympics. As long as nobody is artificially enhanced, it's all fair game imo.

[chrisp65]

1 minute ago, Keyblade said:

 

I think I worded this wrong. I wasn't giving my opinion on the gender spectrum, but speaking from the perspective of the Olympic games. As far as the Olympics are concerned, you are either a man or woman and compete in the respective categories. Unless I'm wrong and there are unisex or non binary events?

My point was, if you satisfy the conditions for being a woman (which I appreciate is under scrutiny), and testosterone levels are within an acceptable range, what does it matter if you are intersex? You can be a woman (or man) without DSD with naturally elevated testosterone levels, as exceedingly rare as that is.

Isn't the Olympics about displaying and celebrating extraordinary and often bewildering physical talent? Michael Phelps for example essentially had gills and giant flippers, which gave him a leg (fin?) up on everyone. LeBron James is 40 years old and still physically dominating guys half his age in the Olympics. As long as nobody is artificially enhanced, it's all fair game imo.

Yep, my remark was directed more at mouths like Sharon Davis and JK Rowling, they don’t appear capable of the depth of thought most on here can. I suspect they’ve painted themselves in to a corner and softening of opinions looks like defeat.

We don’t allow the 7ft tall fat lads to fight ladies, and we also don’t allow them to fight the 60kg lads, or Paralympians. It’s dangerous and not a fair fight. So I can absolutely see there is a need to set parameters for safety and fair sport. If scientifically there is a reason one boxer is unsafe against another, they should be in different categories.

This doesn’t feel impossible. We also shouldn’t shy away from having to tell some people, y’know what, right now we don’t have a safe fair category for you. It is, after all, only sport.

I suspect the unguarded punch to the head and the crying are quite a contributory factor here to make this suddenly newsworthy, when the same Algerian was beaten in the last Olympics by an Irish fighter it didnt make the news Perhaps the conclusion should be that anybody that can beat the Algerian clearly wouldn’t be safe fighting the crying Italian and should also be banned? Of course not.

[Demitri_C]

26 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

Of course not. If I wanted to be punched in the face I'd just show up in one of your no-go areas.

As i expected you wouldnt understand it  just stay in your villatalk bubble.

I come from a family of boxers so i know the blood sweat and tears they have gone through. They do it for more than " getting hit the face" e.g follow their fathers footsteps. You have no idea what they go through with all the sacrifices and toll it takes on their body.

Thats why you have weight divisions for safety and the same with womens boxing. Safety is a big thing. The experts need to ensure all women are safe. You might not care about womens wellbeing in a boxing ring but i do.

 

Edited August 2 by Demitri_C

[foreveryoung]

47 minutes ago, blandy said:

Iron supplements?

Iron can actually decrease Testosterone not increase it. Training and body building increases it, but not to the levels to associate with a ban.

An for the record (not that you said it Bland), I never said Khalif was a man. She is obviously female with XY cromosomes so a higher level of testosterone than a female. That she has lost fights means nothing, she still has a competative advantage.

[foreveryoung]

5 hours ago, KentVillan said:

You have no idea if Khalif is a man though, or what her condition is. It’s all speculation. That’s why people are defending her, not because we believe men have the right to knock out women in a boxing ring.

I would hazard a guess that *all* of the women in the Olympic boxing competition have higher testosterone levels than your average woman in the street.

Possibly not. It's intense training which can increases testoserone levels, not because they box.

[NurembergVillan]

4 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

she still has a competative advantage.

It's such a nuanced discussion isn't it?

On paper you're absolutely right. But then you could say the same about this massive **** too -

[foreveryoung]

1 minute ago, NurembergVillan said:

It's such a nuanced discussion isn't it?

On paper you're absolutely right. But then you could say the same about this massive **** too -

Size dies not really give you an advantage in boxing, unless you have the skill and the fittness to match. Re: Mike Tyson, Usyk.

[Chindie]

As always with this is the sports call themselves.

It's not actually clear what (if anything) Khelif's situation is. She's competed at the Olympics before, losing, and the controversy around her competing entirely derives from the IBA, whose decision on banning her looks fairly dodgy.

If she is intersex, which seems to be the suspicion, but nobody actually knows, then there would need to be investigations into exactly what that is manifested as and that will dictate how the sport acts - Semenya for example has internal testes therefore she's essentially hormonally male which gives an advantage that needs to be balanced to allow competition in what is essentially a concession class. It's entirely possible she isn't like Semenya though, and theres various other conditions that can cause similar effects that do, not for instance, involve someone being 'non-female'. Which opens a huge can of worms - if you are 100% female, but a quirk of genetics means you have polycystic ovary syndrome, or a benign tumour, that causes increased testosterone, is that alright? Is male and female dictated by testosterone level? There are men that fall well below the expected levels of testosterone for males out there, are they not men? Do we decide that sports have to have a limit? Are there other things that we wish to limit in the pursuit of sporting perfection - genetic outliers in other fields?

It's a complete minefield.

[Keyblade]

5 minutes ago, Chindie said:

As always with this is the sports call themselves.

It's not actually clear what (if anything) Khelif's situation is. She's competed at the Olympics before, losing, and the controversy around her competing entirely derives from the IBA, whose decision on banning her looks fairly dodgy.

If she is intersex, which seems to be the suspicion, but nobody actually knows, then there would need to be investigations into exactly what that is manifested as and that will dictate how the sport acts - Semenya for example has internal testes therefore she's essentially hormonally male which gives an advantage that needs to be balanced to allow competition in what is essentially a concession class. It's entirely possible she isn't like Semenya though, and theres various other conditions that can cause similar effects that do, not for instance, involve someone being 'non-female'. Which opens a huge can of worms - if you are 100% female, but a quirk of genetics means you have polycystic ovary syndrome, or a benign tumour, that causes increased testosterone, is that alright? Is male and female dictated by testosterone level? There are men that fall well below the expected levels of testosterone for males out there, are they not men? Do we decide that sports have to have a limit? Are there other things that we wish to limit in the pursuit of sporting perfection - genetic outliers in other fields?

It's a complete minefield.

It's made worse that this is a political hotspot. If it was a guy who had crazy testosterone levels there'd be more measured discussions around sporting limits, but because this sets off the JK Rowlings and Elon Musk types, things will just drag along forever

[Wainy316]

What’s this thread about then?  I am both into sex and female sports