Cizzler Posted October 1 Share Posted October 1 20 hours ago, Stevo985 said: I just think people are expecting him to be something he isn't. And never was. All this exasperation that he isn't driving forward or making progressive passes etc. He's a DM Maybe I'm completely wrong/ misunderstanding his role and what he's bringing. I have a terrible track-record of rage-posting immediately after a bad result. There's posts I've in the McGinn/Watkins threads pre-Emery that would make me cringe if I read them back. And I'm definitely not trying to argue for the sake of it or needlessly slate a player. He's young and there's a lot to like physically. However from my opinion, when I look at how we played last season - we didn't have a dedicated "DM" that rarely played progressive passes. We played with Kamara/Luiz or Luiz/McGinn, Tielemans/McGinn, etc. From first impressions, all of those players are more comfortable on-the-ball than Onana. As a result, (from my memory and definitely not stats based), I just think our build-up play used to be bit better. Using a recent example from the Ipswich game - it felt like we went long from goal-kicks a lot during the second half, it felt like we abandoned trying to beat their press. I appreciate the argument is that Onana has a different skillset (better defensively, less progressive passes) - but have we actually been any better defensively? Arsenal aside, we've played 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th and 20th. Two nearly promoted clubs and Wolves, West Ham and Everton. Clearly we've had a kind opening start to the season (5 of the bottom 7). We've still conceded in every game. Against Wolves, we're 1-0 down - he's replaced by Barkley, we regain an element of control and win 3-1. Against Everton, we're 2-1 down - again, he's replaced by Barkley. Again (in my opinion) our control of the game increased, and we win 3-2. Obviously it's a bit more nuanced than that. We have big problems at right-back - and that's a lot of the reason we're conceding - but I think there is enough to at least question his performances, especially what he's bringing on the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted October 1 VT Supporter Share Posted October 1 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Cizzler said: Maybe I'm completely wrong/ misunderstanding his role and what he's bringing. I have a terrible track-record of rage-posting immediately after a bad result. There's posts I've in the McGinn/Watkins threads pre-Emery that would make me cringe if I read them back. And I'm definitely not trying to argue for the sake of it or needlessly slate a player. He's young and there's a lot to like physically. However from my opinion, when I look at how we played last season - we didn't have a dedicated "DM" that rarely played progressive passes. We played with Kamara/Luiz or Luiz/McGinn, Tielemans/McGinn, etc. From first impressions, all of those players are more comfortable on-the-ball than Onana. As a result, (from my memory and definitely not stats based), I just think our build-up play used to be bit better. Using a recent example from the Ipswich game - it felt like we went long from goal-kicks a lot during the second half, it felt like we abandoned trying to beat their press. I appreciate the argument is that Onana has a different skillset (better defensively, less progressive passes) - but have we actually been any better defensively? Arsenal aside, we've played 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th and 20th. Two nearly promoted clubs and Wolves, West Ham and Everton. Clearly we've had a kind opening start to the season (5 of the bottom 7). We've still conceded in every game. Against Wolves, we're 1-0 down - he's replaced by Barkley, we regain an element of control and win 3-1. Against Everton, we're 2-1 down - again, he's replaced by Barkley. Again (in my opinion) our control of the game increased, and we win 3-2. Obviously it's a bit more nuanced than that. We have big problems at right-back - and that's a lot of the reason we're conceding - but I think there is enough to at least question his performances, especially what he's bringing on the ball. Kamara was the DM last season. it's the entire reason Luiz was so good because Kamara did the defensive midfield job and Luiz was allowed to roam further forward. It's no coincidence that Luiz' and Villa's form fell off after Kamara got injured because we didn't have someone who could do that as effectively anymore. Luiz had to do it a lot and he's not as good there. I'm not saying Onana is perfect, or that he's played well in every game. He hasn't. What I'm saying is if people are expecting him to be some sort of attacking powerhouse they're going to be disappointed, and it feels like people might be judging him for that. He got 3 goals and 2 assists in his entire Everton career He's a defensive midfielder. He breaks up play, makes tackles and recycles the ball. That's what he does. And against Ipswich he did more of that than he's done in any game for us so far this season It's great that he's scored a couple of goals for us already, but they will be anomalies Edited October 1 by Stevo985 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted October 1 VT Supporter Share Posted October 1 21 hours ago, Stevo985 said: He's a DM I agree with this, but on the flipside, if he's a DM why is he our highest midfielder when we're 2-1 up away from home, leaving us massively exposed? I like him but he has a lot of work to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted October 1 VT Supporter Share Posted October 1 8 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: I agree with this, but on the flipside, if he's a DM why is he our highest midfielder when we're 2-1 up away from home, leaving us massively exposed? I like him but he has a lot of work to do. Like I said, I'm not giving some mad defence of him saying he's perfect and hasn't done anything wrong I'm just trying to stop people judging a DM by the standards of an attacking player Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomaszk Posted October 1 Share Posted October 1 He usually excels without the ball. I'm expecting him to get right in amongst it against Bayern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skruff Posted Wednesday at 21:48 Share Posted Wednesday at 21:48 Deserves some credit too. Thought he played very well today. plenty of defensive involvements, took the ball on the half turn and drowe forward a few times as well. Improving. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaJay Posted Wednesday at 21:58 Share Posted Wednesday at 21:58 Better performance tonight and better on the ball too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomaszk Posted Thursday at 03:29 Share Posted Thursday at 03:29 Was pretty good before he went off. A shame. He needs to be. If Kamara comes back in the form he was, Onana is on the bench. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderPower_14 Posted Thursday at 06:05 Share Posted Thursday at 06:05 Really nice game today. I think games like this against opponents who come at us is where he'll shine. Luckily for us he'll have the likes of Tielemans, Barkley and McGinn with him who can play those incisive passes. If he was an elite level passer of the ball he wouldn't have come to us, and he would have been worth a lot more than 50mil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted Thursday at 22:00 Share Posted Thursday at 22:00 Is he injured? Or was the substitution more tactical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted Thursday at 22:27 Share Posted Thursday at 22:27 18 hours ago, Tomaszk said: Was pretty good before he went off. A shame. He needs to be. If Kamara comes back in the form he was, Onana is on the bench. May I just ask, what is a shame? And what does he need to be? I think I haven’t grasped your argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radness Posted Friday at 00:05 Share Posted Friday at 00:05 On 03/10/2024 at 07:48, Skruff said: Deserves some credit too. Thought he played very well today. plenty of defensive involvements, took the ball on the half turn and drowe forward a few times as well. Improving. I think this will be what he will be looking for, using his sharp elbows and long legs to hold off the press, turn his man and find an open teammate for the counter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomaszk Posted Friday at 01:16 Share Posted Friday at 01:16 (edited) 2 hours ago, briny_ear said: May I just ask, what is a shame? And what does he need to be? I think I haven’t grasped your argument. You may. He was playing well and went off injured. That was a shame. I think if you take the average Kamara Villa performance v the average Onana Villa performance, it's likely Onana is on the bench. If we're leading in games and hanging on, Kamara and Onana next to each other would be formidable. Not sure we'll see it from the start too often. Edited Friday at 01:42 by Tomaszk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterw Posted Friday at 10:03 Share Posted Friday at 10:03 On 03/10/2024 at 04:29, Tomaszk said: Was pretty good before he went off. A shame. He needs to be. If Kamara comes back in the form he was, Onana is on the bench. Maybe, but there's also the possibility that Onana plays next to Kamara pushing Tielemans further forwrd. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allani Posted Friday at 12:03 Share Posted Friday at 12:03 10 hours ago, Tomaszk said: You may. He was playing well and went off injured. That was a shame. I think if you take the average Kamara Villa performance v the average Onana Villa performance, it's likely Onana is on the bench. If we're leading in games and hanging on, Kamara and Onana next to each other would be formidable. Not sure we'll see it from the start too often. I don't see Kamara and Onana competing for one spot. I think we'll see them both on the pitch a fair amount with Tielemans, Rogers and Bailey behind Ollie. They'd give us a solid platform in the middle of the pitch and maybe more licence to play Maatsen as a more attacking full-back. There will be games when we might not need two more physical players in the middle of the park (I don't really want to call either defensive) and so could swap out one or the other for Barkley, SJM or Ramsey depending on how Unai wants to try and attack the opposition. But it's all about options and when Kamara is back, Unai is going to have lots of those. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allani Posted Friday at 12:05 Share Posted Friday at 12:05 2 hours ago, peterw said: Maybe, but there's also the possibility that Onana plays next to Kamara pushing Tielemans further forwrd. Tielemans doesn't necessarily need to play further foward but I think he's definitely be told to focus more on the playmaking side of things than the tracking / defensive side. So he'd have more licence to roam, collect the ball off the back 4 but also then push on and not have to worry as much about leaving a gap behind him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_AA_786 Posted Friday at 12:11 Share Posted Friday at 12:11 We spend a fair bit of time debating Onana each week but I think most people probably have more confidence that the £50m we spent on Onana will prove to be good business than we do for the £37.5m we spent on Maatsen. Not having a dig at Maatsen but Onana hasn't been eased in like Ian and is in a position where its hard to hide/perform consistently. Credit where credits due, he's doing well and is progressing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czarnikjak Posted Friday at 12:22 Share Posted Friday at 12:22 8 minutes ago, _AA_786 said: We spend a fair bit of time debating Onana each week but I think most people probably have more confidence that the £50m we spent on Onana will prove to be good business than we do for the £37.5m we spent on Maatsen. Not having a dig at Maatsen but Onana hasn't been eased in like Ian and is in a position where its hard to hide/perform consistently. Credit where credits due, he's doing well and is progressing The main reason why Onana was dropped right in there was the fact that we had a massive gap in midfield. If we didn't have Digne playing out of his skin, Maatsen would be dropped right in aswell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meregreen Posted Friday at 12:31 Share Posted Friday at 12:31 Maatsen will be a regular for years to come. Digne I can see going to Saudi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turvontour Posted Friday at 13:06 Share Posted Friday at 13:06 Did anyone see Onana was the only player singing the champions league anthem in the lineup before the game. Please tell me has has learnt the lyrics. Haha 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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